PV Installers - Profit or not?

[Spazz]

I am looking at doing my PV installers course now in the next few months, but wanted to get some feedback first before I do anything.

I have a loan for getting the training done and MCS accreditation.


What I need to know is, is there any profit in PV installation and how much work is there at the moment for it?
I know that the Green Deal is coming soon (end of he year).

How much does the average PV Kit cost supply and how much would it sell at fitted?
I have tried to look around at suppliers but most of them require MCS registration number before they issue any prices out

Thanks all in advanced

 

[whinmoor]

Refer you to a recent thread:

http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...s-green-energy-forum/55900-solar-pv-jobs.html

 

[sedgy34]

i would really think is it worth bothering with,the rush has gone and many companys have coined it in and dissapeared.
we are mcs and have put alot of effort in getting set up and stuff, the cheapest price fitted is around 7k all the stuff comes to around 5k there is alot of bad publicity for solar now and peoples perception is that its not worth bothering with. The green deal is going to make it affordable to everyone with the way its paid for but i cant see everyone rushing to take this up,the government keep moving the goal posts on it.

 

[Spazz]

Just as an idea - just to through a ball into the court for opinions!

I was thinking about finding an investor who would pay the £5K (plus scaffolding etc)for the equipment - sign upto the FIT scheme where the government pay me.
Then thinking that FIT pays about £1K - the investor would get 75% (£750 per year for 25 years) and I get the other 25% (£250 per year).
Taking that each job costs £6K to install, with the FIT will have paid the investor £18,750 (375% return on the investment over 25 years).
The home owner gets free electric (well discounted bills) as payment for the hire of their roof space and I get £6,250 (over 25 years) and the investor makes their return.

The reason I am asking is I have an investor interested in putting 10-20 PV installations up per year. We have only just started to look at this so I want other's opinion as well please.

Of course this is reliant of the FIT Scheme continuing without much of a decrease. Iknow how FIT works but weather it has a future or not I don't know.
Also is it possible to limit how much of the electricity that is supplied by the PV to be used by the home owner so a nice profit can come back to me and the investor?


Any Ideas on this?

 

[Spazz]

Before anyone asks - it is a family member who does not have long left (less than 7 years) and has a few £100K in the bank and wants to decrease the inheritance tax that we (grandchildren pay).
The advantage of this is he would be putting all the money into an installation which the grandchildren would then take the revenue from the FIT Scheme. The FIT Scheme will remain in my business name and spread out between all the grandchildren (when he goes).

 

[Gavin A]

ah, well that potentially changes the picture a bit. although that'll only help to tide you over in business through the quiet periods, you'll still be wanting to find another 1-2 jobs per week or so.

 

[Spazz]

ah, well that potentially changes the picture a bit. although that'll only help to tide you over in business through the quiet periods, you'll still be wanting to find another 1-2 jobs per week or so.

That is not a problem as I have contracts with 3 letting agents to maintain and maintain all their electrical services in all managed properties.
They pay an annual fee per property and they get unlimited emergency call outs, parts at cost, EICRs.

On the grounds a property needs a EICR 3 times at most and upto 5 emergency call outs (all within 10 miles of me by the way) I make a nice profit per year.
When doing maintenance work they pay 3/4 my rate and parts at cost.

Im looking at these PVs at the mo, and even thinking about using one of his fields he has and making a solar farm - but that is a different situation completely!
This would average about 50 panels per year installed I would be thinking - but we will see!

Planning is a problem as we where just turned down for a eco house on the edge of the field, and the field is in his name so would the farm - big problem with the inheritance tax! And not long enough between now and when he expected to leave this world to make it worth while.

The tax man has said he needs to give it away (and not to family) to reduce inheritance tax!

 

[whinmoor]

Doesn't the FiT payment reduce by 20% if you claim for more than 25 PV systems? I thought they called it "aggregate" or something similar?

 

[Dave-geo]

I believe I am right in saying that you do not have to limit how much electricity the householder uses. They are deemed to have used 50% of the total generation no matter how much they actually use. I don't know if this would change in the future if smart meters are introduced.

Hope this helps.

 

[Spazz]

Doesn't the FiT payment reduce by 20% if you claim for more than 25 PV systems? I thought they called it "aggregate" or something similar?

If that is the case - then each grandchild will claim a % of the installations.

Say 10 per yer - 5 Grandchildren
2 PVs per year

Expected 5 years max left Max - 10 max before he goes.

Potential of about £10,000 per year, which could always go towards increasing their lot to the 25 quota.

 

[Spazz]

I believe I am right in saying that you do not have to limit how much electricity the householder uses. They are deemed to have used 50% of the total generation no matter how much they actually use. I don't know if this would change in the future if smart meters are introduced.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Dave - very interesting.
As said before I dont know much at all about PV and how they installed and how the FIT works out how much electric is generated etc

 

[SRE]

We're landlords as well as pv installers. Landlord bit is pension in theory pv is day to day business. I'm putting 1 possibly 2 systems in before July because it's the best possible place for my money and helps to let the properties - would I start again in pv? Never in a million years and I certainly wouldn't be taking out a loan to fund it.

Cashflow is horrendous and few people remember to mention it - add that to half an install/ installation firm in April and make up your own mind.

 

[sedgy34]

I would look at other ways of investing the inheritance.
I got an Asian customer who says put your money in an Indian bank you get 10% return.

 

[dansk]

you could try Iran your feeling brave 18% Deposit Rates Exchange - Compare Interest Rates for Fixed, Term, Time and Certificate Deposits Accounts Worldwide

 

[Vegelen]

Iran's annualised 22.5% inflation may be a bit of a problem.

 

[SolarCity]

Iran's annualised 22.5% inflation may be a bit of a problem.

Not to mention the loony toons in charge.

 

[Vegelen]

Then there's the added complexity of the USA planning to Usurp them for oil.

The Israeli's want to nuke their nucleur facilities.

The Saudia's want to destabilise them.

Iraq's in a mess and close neighbours Syria are loosing the plot.

Time to invest in Ayatolla Bank plc? :0

 

[moggy1968]

can't be worse than iceland :drunk:

 

[Gavin A]

If that is the case - then each grandchild will claim a % of the installations.

Say 10 per yer - 5 Grandchildren
2 PVs per year

Expected 5 years max left Max - 10 max before he goes.

Potential of about £10,000 per year, which could always go towards increasing their lot to the 25 quota.

Just stumbled across this guidance from ofgem that says that plan won't work...

2.93. A ‗connected person‘ in relation to a FIT generator or a nominated recipient,
means any person connected to that person within the meaning of section 1122 of
the Corporation Tax Act 2010
40
. These provisions are complicated and a full
explanation of them is beyond the scope of this guidance. Where participants or
prospective participants in the FIT scheme are assessing whether the multiinstallation tariffs may apply to them, it is suggested that they take independent
legal advice relevant to their circumstances. Below are some common illustrative
examples only of how a person (‗person A‘) may be a ‗connected person‘ in
relation to another person (‗person B‘):
Person A is person B‘s spouse or civil partner;
Person A is person B‘s relative;


Person A is a relative of person B‘s spouse or civil partner;
Person A is a spouse or civil partner of a relative of person B;
Person A and person B are both companies: and the same person (‗person C‘) has control over both;
Person A and person B are both companies; person C has control over
person A; and persons connected with C have control over person B;

 

[tparnel]

the cost of the panels is coming down aswell. I assume that would negate the loss in FIT

 

[alexpau]

Those within the market that presume (government included ) that prices will continue to tumble for PV installations are presuming to much for example - mounting systems are made from stainless steel or Aluminmum as these are raw materials when have you seen raw material prices fall ? panels part of the reason for cheaper panels now is over production in China which means they have to sell them off also now the americans are slapping a 30% import duty on them there will be more dumped in Europe but then what? once these run out prices will rise, With invertors yep you can purchase cheap one but will they perform and last like SMA etc? the other issue is labour costs in Germany they work on a 1,000 euro gross profit margin typically on a 4Kw system would UK compaines want to or afford to do that?

 

[Noshocks]

Those within the market that presume (government included ) that prices will continue to tumble for PV installations are presuming to much for example - mounting systems are made from stainless steel or Aluminmum as these are raw materials when have you seen raw material prices fall ? panels part of the reason for cheaper panels now is over production in China which means they have to sell them off also now the americans are slapping a 30% import duty on them there will be more dumped in Europe but then what? once these run out prices will rise, With invertors yep you can purchase cheap one but will they perform and last like SMA etc? the other issue is labour costs in Germany they work on a 1,000 euro gross profit margin typically on a 4Kw system would UK compaines want to or afford to do that?

At 1000 euro (£799 GBP) its obvious the answer is no, I could do a board change and put in an outside supply for a garage for that money, with just a years warranty and sleep soundly. The MCS and asociated costs, a large outlay in materials, VAT tieing up cash flow, weather holding you up, the downsides are large. If we have to compete at this level its only the national players that will be left.

 

[SolarCity]

At 1000 euro (£799 GBP) its obvious the answer is no, I could do a board change and put in an outside supply for a garage for that money, with just a years warranty and sleep soundly. The MCS and asociated costs, a large outlay in materials, VAT tieing up cash flow, weather holding you up, the downsides are large. If we have to compete at this level its only the national players that will be left.

Judging by some of the prices that some firms are quoting, they're already below £799

 

[SRE]

Judging by some of the prices that some firms are quoting, they're already below £799

and think they're coining it in too!!

 

[infinity]

would you think £2k profit would be a good margin? What would the expected margin be to allow or all eventualities?

 

[alexpau]

At 1000 euro (£799 GBP) its obvious the answer is no, I could do a board change and put in an outside supply for a garage for that money, with just a years warranty and sleep soundly. The MCS and asociated costs, a large outlay in materials, VAT tieing up cash flow, weather holding you up, the downsides are large. If we have to compete at this level its only the national players that will be left.

The way the Germans do it is different they have work five days a week every week of the year the way I see it is 4,000 euro per week per installation team presuming one install per day

 

[SRE]

German example has potential if the business is there but with an average of one installation per installer for the whole of April somehow I don't think we're operating in the same market!

 

[alexpau]

German example has potential if the business is there but with an average of one installation per installer for the whole of April somehow I don't think we're operating in the same market!

Hey i agree with you unlike the German government the UK government has not been a supporter of the the PV industry since October last year they have created nothing but sceptism and uncertainty in a market with enough work potential for the next ten years. Did you read 40% of all domestic electricity used in Germany this weekend was generated by PV!

After the Nuclear disaster in Japan the German government became more commited to Solar as its a much safer and cheaper option to building Nuclear power plants in this country we cant make our minds up and unless we have a clear stratergy on energy we will wake up one morning and it will be like the 1970,s again with power cuts as our supply networks clapses under the strain

 

[alexpau]

Profit margin is dependant on many factors but be careful on what kit you use and install remember they are good and bad products in this industry like all others for example

The panels have to be efficient and provide enough output to last 25 years
The mounting system has to have Euro approvals and be fit for purpose and installed as per the manufacturers specification
The inverter is the heartbeat of the system this needs to be reliable and efficient and again last a number of years

You dont want to go back again after you have installed the system unless its for maintenance purposes as you will eat into what profit you did make, i have issues with some kits out there at silly cheap prices - the mounting systems have not be designed for the specific roof you are installing in and i garrantee the panels and invertors will not be of the best standards available