RCD coding for a periodic

[DJ Fozzy]

I'm about to carry out a periodic and after asking other sparks i know (who seem to have different opinions) and reading up from various sources i'm still unsure on the correct coding to put on the certificate.
The PIR is at a shop which also has an upstairs flat. It's a TNS system and there are 2 x fuseboards. One for the shop and one for the flat above.
Neither board has RCD protection.
Question 1. As the downstairs board is for a shop would this have no coding as it's a commercial premises?

Question 2. I know the upstairs flat has to fail as it's a domestic property and doesn't meet the 17th edition but would it be a code 4 as it's an upstairs flat and unlikely to have portable equipment plugged into the sockets or would it be a 2 similiar to a house?

Finally i'll be checking the supplementary bonding in the flat bathroom when deciding on RCD requirements as well. If none then that would be a code 2 i assume not a 4 for the lighting in there?

hope this doesn't come across as too thick but i'm fairly new to periodics and although up for interpretation i don't want to be too strict or more importantly too slack when it comes to coding

 

[Adam W]

The flat wouldn't necessarily be a fail just because it hasn't got rcd protection - as I recall rcd protection was required in the 16th for sockets where equipment is likely to be used outdoors (which they probably wouldn't if the flat is on the 1st floor), and obviously for TT systems.
By the sound of it it's just not to 17th, so would be a code 4 IMO.

 

[Adam W]

Oh yeah, and welcome to the forum BTW!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Welcome to the forum. The commercial aspect of the PIR will be for you to decide really, Though it is commercial as it is downstairs and you assess that there is a posibilty that a socket is or can be used for mobile equipment outside then you should code it a 2.

Of course the best situation would be to change the MCB to perhaps a RCBO/s for just the socket circuit/s. this should be advised to the client with a covering letter

The non use of RCD in the domestic situation would as it is a first floor flat be 4 for the sockets. The lighting may be different, as the chances are that there is only the one circuit for the lighting and this would do the bathroom.

If there is need for supplementary bonding, and you can check this in reg 415.2.2 for the metal work in the bathroom that is an extraneous conductive part, and there isn't any then you need to code that a 2. If there is bonding, or no need for bonding then again the code would be a 4.

You will though need to ensure any non RCD protected circuits in the domestic and even the commercial site meet disconnection times.

 

[DJ Fozzy]

thanks sparkus. from reading the best practice guides codes i did think the flat should be a code 4 but just double checking on that one....what about he shop? no code due to it being a commercial premises as there's a supervised or instructed person? Am i right on that one???

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It will depend on whether any of the socket-outlets are used to supply mobile equipment outdoors.
If any are used for such, then RCD protection is required, irrespective of whether the persons are skilled, instructed or ordinary. There are no exceptions.

 

[rocker]

If there is supp bonding and the installation was put in before 17th then the flat would have no code either, not even a code 4. I WOULD put it in 'notes' though and also in a covering letter or extra sheet (I always add an extra sheet called 'further observations' for this very reason).

I wouldn't necessarily say that there's a supervised or instructed person just because it's commercial either. You say it's a shop, do you mean a shop that sells things or a shop like a workshop? If it's one that sells things I would not imagine anyone who works there could be deemed competent enough to negate RCD protection (which isn't necessarily needed anyway, as per above, just making the point!)

I hope you don't mind me asking but how long have you been doing this job/what qualifications do you have to say you are experienced enough to carry out PIRs?

 

[mogga]

A lot of guys are falling into 2 traps ie : Sockets NEED to be RCD protected NOT if its 16th edd Other one is that due to being commercial No RCD is required Definition of Under Suppervision had a definite meaning at fromt of BRB it could mean that mr Jones the butcher wouldnt need RCD sockets as Mr jones doesnt allow any work to be carried out unless he supervises Mrs Jones the florist however may require RCD due to her using water and not fully supervising any work a Blanket answer is not appropriate each case requires individual answer

 

[malcolmsanford]

A code 4 means not compliant to the current regs and as such

411.3.3 In a domestic situation as in the flat, socket outlets intended for the use of ordinary persons not exceeding 20 amps and for general use is non compliant and a code 4. A code 2 if you as the tester you feel that they can be used for mobile equipment outdoors not exceeding 32amp

522.6.5 & 5.22.6.6 In a domestic situation as in the flat if cables are under a floor or buried in a wall and again do not have the safeguards highlighted in these regulations a code 4

701.411.3.3 In locations containing a bath or shower and where any circuits do not have RCD protection a code 4

Think we got to realise that because your coding something a 4 it does not mean it needs changing or is dangerous it just means it is not compliant to the BS 7671-2008, and in that case needs highlighting and advice given. That is why IMO every code that is given should be backed by a Regulation.

As Mogga says I think it would be hard to not interpret a commercial/industrial as not being under the supervision of either a skilled or instructed person and he quite rightly says that every installation should be assessed on an individual basis.

 

[DJ Fozzy]

cheers for the help guys..was fairly confident on the code 4 for the flat and the regs that malcolmsanford has quoted has confirmed this..very unlikely that the flat would be used for portable equipment due to it's location..
I don't mind you asking my qualifications or how long i've been doing the job Rocker..been doing the job for about 8 years...around 3 years in industrial then moved onto mainly domestic....i have 2360 part 1 and 2,NVQ 3,16th edition and 17th edition upgrade,2391 inspection and testing.
I was perhaps being a little harsh on myself saying i was new to periodics..For about 2 years i worked for a big firm doing lots of periodics on social housing...anyone who's done this will know that it's a joke how much testing you're expected to do to make your money and that they're only interested in whether the house requires a rewire or an upgrade and they basically want them all to fail. i know of one housing trust that requests a rewire if the electrics are over 25 years. What i ment to say was i'm fairly new to private PIR's and commercial as i'm more recently self employed and although i feel fairly confident and experienced it what to look for i'm realizing that the coding i've been taught over the years varies alot..also cheers mogga for your input...i'd read on the elecsa technical help about commercial and industrrial premises having instructed or supervised people so not requiring RCD's..It again totally makes sense to judge it premises separately...just didn't fancy Mr Jones the butcher trying to tell me i was right or wrong when i handed the PIR back.....it's a funeral parlour by the way lol

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Sometimes people look too deep into this PIR coding issue. You are carrying out a Periodic Test and Inspection on the electrical installation for whatever purpose is agreed.

I usually put in the box "To assess its condition in relation to current standards".

Therefore, you assess its condition firstly to the edition of the wiring regulations when it was installed i.e 15th, 16th, 17th etc etc.
If it meets the requirements of this then all is well, we assume no code 1,2 or 3 defects.

Code 4. Does not comply with current regulations.

No RCD protection to any part of the installation
RCD protection to downstairs sockets only.

These are just examples, but because it doesn't comply with todays regs, doesn't mean you can go around giving code 1,2 and 3 defects. If it was Ok at installation to say 15th edition, then if all the tests are good then it is OK today and safe for continued use.

Cheers.......Howard