Return of the Plumber.....

[kentster]

Just got a call from my sister who had a new bathroom (and 10.5kW shower) fitted 4 weeks ago because their cartridge fuse has just blown. She proceeds with the "i've popped down B&Q" to get a replacement fuse, all very well and good, until she tells me its a 30A fuse!!!

Suggested she got hold of the sparky who fitted the shower and confirm why its on a 30A and whether the cable size, installation method allows for a bigger fuse, to then be told the plumber advised he didn't need to get a sparky in as he's replacing like for like.

So my questions: -

1) I'm assuming like for like in regards to showers means the same wattage?
2) Regardless of above should there have been a minor works cert?
3) 10,500 / 230 comes out at 45.65A so technically that means a 50A fuse, but in the real world would you use a 45A?
4) When looking in the BRB at current carrying capacities of cables do you guys use the 30 degree figures or use correction factor down to something lower?

 

[Amp David]

I'd get the plumber back and kick him in the head. Or get him to refund what he charged to replace the shower like for like. Numpty!

 

[jase]

This is exactly why part p fails, cos if you look at part p it is actually not notifiable to replace a shower like for like, problem here is that your plumber assumes one shower is the same as another, and has disregarded the wattages. Aswell as the fuse, i would be checking what size the cable that was supplying the old shower is, if it is 6 mm it will be grossly undersized for a 10.5kw shower

 

[Johno]

Agree with david, he obviously doesn't understand electrics. So if fuse is blowing (which it obviously will) get him back, and have a word.

 

[Amp David]

The main rason part p fails is that the consumer doesn't know about it.

The amount of times customers ring me to ask why they've had a cert through the post after i've finished the job

 

[Johno]

And they even try and make us sell insurance for work aswell, and of course I don't, but then when they send cert they ask if it was offered, which sometimes means questions for me!

 

[jase]

the main reason part p fails is cos its **** lol and i, a qualified sparx cannot by law change a C.U but a dodgy plumber can install a new shower with scant regard for cable rating/ fuse rating /means of isolation etc etc and all perfectly legal and above board

 

[Colin Integrale]

Easy. Short sharp cold showers.

 

[Johno]

I am drunk, so I fancy a rant about part p.

Why the %^&* can't we just have an ID card or something proving we are qualified and put some ads about warning customers to only use qualified sparks and forget all this red tape

Basically cut extra cost to customer and less profit for us!

 

[thewetspark]

Part P. 1.4.2 Minor work. Half a page or so but clearly states even though it doesn't need notifying it still must be done by a competeant person, inspected and tested and a minor works certificate issued to the client. This is the only work under part P you can test and inspect someone elses work but I wouldn't unless I had proff indemnity and 2391 in case it ever got to Court.
I'm only Part P qualified (yet) but can see the big holes in it, for me they should take all electrical cable and fittings off the shelves and you'd need to be qualified and registered to buy it, (the same with GAS fittings, appliances).
Diverging a bit but the same theme, Part P and so called competant persons. Something I never have understood is the way testing is recorded. By the book you should test at every outlet on a circuit but the forms only give space for ONE! I test by the book and record on my own sheets. It's been very good as I've done a lot of flat conversion refurbs and when you do a thorough test you find all sorts of faults, lots by the trend of test readings when they are tabulated. Me I can't remember twenty or so readings so have to right them down to remeber which is the highest for the Cert.
I was also shocked when I found out you don't need to be qualified or registered to do commercial/industrial with all that voltage!!

 

[Colin Integrale]

http://www.electriciansforums.net/electrical-forum-general-electrical-forum/18609-part-p.html !!!

 

[golfpaul]

Part p is here to stay.
Get assessed - 'qualifieds'

 

[Des 56]

Employed well trained Jib registered spark in the game for umpteen years
Plumber attends training center for 5 days
Customer requires electrical work

Jib guy cant notify job
5 day plumber registered as defined scope can make a notification(the actual job being notified is his choice)

Something doesn't add up
What an utter shambles the nonesense became

 

[thewetspark]

Agreed but as said, it's here to stay. But again, it is a starting point, before anyone could do domestic, a few more years and you will have to be a fully qualified sparks to get Part P registered. It's just a pity they have let private businesses get control of it, might be registered charities or whatever but the people running them do so to maintain their fat jobs. Four hundred quid for a 3 hour assessment every year, the assessor doesn't get much of that either; ADMIN eats it.
I just hope the Government see sense sooner than they did with Corgi and puts them all in their place!

 

[kentster]

Blimey, I never thought last night this post would get so much attention, but got to say that I agree with the whole Part P thing. I'm not a qualified sparky (yet!) and due to working am doing the 'scam' 4 week course which the sales guys then say will make me qualified enough to go out on my own. I might have a few certificates under my belt at the end but I'm very sure I won't be competant as won't have any real experience. Same as the plumbers on their defined scope 5 day course!!

I can't see how I can learn to be a proper spark in 4 weeks, so definetly can't see how you can do defined scope in 5 days

As lots of other people have said though, its here to stay as too many people are making money out of it

 

[garyinderby]

I think the short courses are a starting point. The trick is to know this and when starting out not bite off more than you can chew. I took the short course as a career change, though i found it to be common sense in the most part. The electrical content was very intense and contary to common belief not everyone passes.
there is also a big difference in the attitude to the sales talk at the learning centres, you are left in no doubt that you are learning the basics. I for one am grateful to have been able to do the course and would also like to thank all the members of this forum for there time, patience and considerable knowledge they share with us guys that didnt come into the trade by the traditional route. there will always be muppets out there but if the good guys stand together(regardles of how we came to be electricians) we can beat the cowboys into submission. Gary

 

[Octopus]

Out of interest what was the rating in the shower which was taken out? I can't believe that there was a 10.5KW shower in place before!

 

[kentster]

Hi Murdoch, the original shower was a 7.5kW we think, so wasn't like for like....! There's also no RCD protection and i'm pretty sure once someone has looked at it, that the cable will be 6mm.

Can already feel the argument starting when the plumber is called back out to pay for all the tiles to be removed so a new cable can be run in ;-)

 

[Octopus]

I think the cost to the plumber will be more than lifting a few tiles - surely it can't be that simple. At the very least somebodies got to pay for the new circuit breaker and then with about RCD protection.

I fear your sister is going to have to pay some of it.

Maybe there's a friendly sparky in Bournemouth who can nip round before you get the plumber back so she's clear on what is required!

Good luck

 

[kentster]

Yeah good point, if only it were that simple as i'd have liked to be there when the sparky popped round so I could learn, but she's over the border in Wales - little bit far to travel.

 

[Amp David]

Still stick by my first post regarding what action needs to be taken!

 

[EoinConway]

Still stick by my first post regarding what action needs to be taken!

I agree, kick him in the head

 

[pushrod]

This is exactly why part p fails, cos if you look at part p it is actually not notifiable to replace a shower like for like, problem here is that your plumber assumes one shower is the same as another, and has disregarded the wattages. Aswell as the fuse, i would be checking what size the cable that was supplying the old shower is, if it is 6 mm it will be grossly undersized for a 10.5kw shower

It might be undersized when you take the installation method into account but 6mm clipped direct is actually 47A, which is larger than the Ib in this case