RING GUIDE, per socket wire thickness/AMPAGE?

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srands

HI

On socket wire reels (Twin & Earth, Prysmian or any make really), the thickness determines, the associated AMPAGE, hence:
1.0mm = 15A
1.5mm = 20A
2.5mm = 27A
4.0mm = 36A
6.0mm = 46A
10.0mm = 63A
16.0mm = 85A

HOWEVER, what about the approximate RINGED VALUE of each of the SOCKET WIRE TYPES (Twin & Earth)?

In my 17th Edition IEE Guide, only the most common SKT WIRE thickness RINGED, is mentioned:
1.5mm RINGED = 20A x 1.6 = 32A
2.5mm RINGED = 27A x 1.2 = 32A

What about the approximate RINGED AMPAGES of:
1mm, 4mm, 6mm, 10mm, 16mm?

Does anybody have a reliable RING GUIDE? Or anybody have any good approximate figures, from socket wire reels, electrical websites, reference guides, etc? :eek:

Cheers

Stephan
 
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I was always under the impression that the minimum cable size for a ring circuit was 2.5mm ?
Dunno where this comes from just something people have always told me, ive never owned my own copy of the regs, when you work for a big company most of these things are worked out for you (well... most of them).
 
and how much current can a ringed pigeon stand. it's not in the recipe and i don't want it to be overcooked
 
Here in Spain on some installs we have 25mm singles entering the DB, So this goes straight into the top of the general switch .....only problem is 25mm dont fit, Whats available in UK for this problem. The spanish give the cable what they call a haircut ie trim it to get it in. what happens in UK please
 
You can obtain solid copper adapters, shaped a bit like a T.
The lower part fits into the terminal, and the upperpart has usually two holes for connecting a lug attached to the conductor.
I believe there are also pin crimps that can be used.
 
will search for them...........Just ordered my first wago connectors today from CPC in Preston looking forward to having a play. Its amazing the things I cant get here.
spinlondon said:
You can obtain solid copper adapters, shaped a bit like a T.
The lower part fits into the terminal, and the upperpart has usually two holes for connecting a lug attached to the conductor.
I believe there are also pin crimps that can be used.
Click to expand...
 
Tried bootlace but still wont fit, All singles into the MDB/RCDs here have to have bootlace busy looking for pin crimp? on google. Found it! never seen ones that except 25mm but will look
somersetsparks said:
Pin Crimps Would be No.1 Choice, quite a lot of big jobs specify all cores are crimped now, even if its just a bootlace crimp!
Click to expand...
 
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Hmm so does anybody know the RING AMPAGE of SKT WIRE, for all of these thicknesses?:
1mm, 1.5mm, 2.5mm, 4mm, 6mm, 10mm, etc

Also since in some cases, it won't be known what appliances will be used, their wattage and typical length of use.
So how to estimate MAX WATTs for each MCB circuit, per SOCKET? I guess some sort of SOCKET AVERAGE MAX per square metre.
My references guides mention:
2.5mm, 32A Radial = 20m2
4mm, 40A Radial = 50m2
4mm, 40A Ring = 100m2

Can anybody add to this? That is a more substantial reference guide, or from a really valid source?

Cheers

Stephan.

MY COMPREHENSIVE ELEC WATER GAS NRG UTILITY METER COST CALC, 1ST TAB, SCROLL DOWN
Stephan Rands' Website 1st tab, scroll down

EXAMPLE OF SIMPLE ELEC/WATER/GAS CALCULATOR ON MONEY TIER SPREADSHEET 2ND/3RD/4TH TAB

FUSEBOX CONSUMER UNIT with 1 RCD: MCB and SKT wire AUTOCALC

FUSEBOX CONSUMER UNIT with 2+ RCDS: MCB and SKT wire AUTOCALC

LIGHTING CIRCUIT DIAGRAMS

RING & RADIAL SKT DIAGRAMS

MULTIMETER GUIDE
 
Strand ampage is slang, if you want to taken seriously it pays to use the correct terminology:- CURRENT is the quantity (its symbol is I) and it is measured in AMPERES (its symbol is A).

Take a look at BS7671, Table 4D2A, Reference Method 3 (Clipped Direct), Two core Cable (with or without CPC), Single Phase. This is the original source of the values you quote.
Looking at the columns and you will see that current rating of the conductors depend on a number of factors, how the cable will be erected (Reference Method), how many core are combined in the cable, material the conductor is made from, ambient temperature, conductor operating temperature and the cross sectional area of each conductor.
If you look at the whole of appendix 4 you will see a whole heap of parameters that one would have to consider to answer your question.
Therefore what probably appeared to you to be a straight forward simple question, is in fact much more complex and the reason you didn't get the snappy answer you were expecting.
It can all look quite complex and daunting, but don't give up, keep asking questions, the art is ask specific questions rather than all encompassing ones.
Hope this helps.
 
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problem with MICC cable as used for a ring final circuit, is the copper sheath. mr. plumber will come along and try and tap in a radiator.
 
OK, how condescending! :p It is a simple question, that has a simple answer ;):
A very approximate RING AMPAGE per different skt wire diameter!

OBVIOUSLY IEE AND SKT WIRE MANUFACTURERS ARE VAGUE ABOUT SPECIFYING RING AMPAGE MAXIMUM VALUES, AS THESE ARE NOT ABSOLUTE CERTAINITIES AS THERE ARE MANY VARIBLES (See detailed explanation below), HENCE RING AMPAGE MAXIMUM VALUES ARE JUST AN APPROXIMATE GUIDE. Let me put this another way.

SOCKET WIRE MANUFACTURERS make SKT WIRE of different diameters, the AMPAGE specified, does include a big safety margin.
For example 2.5mm skt wire ampage is rated to 27A.
To make a comparison, a 30A fuse wire (Used on rewireable fuses), is approximately ½ the diameter of 2.5mm skt wire. Hence the real ampage load of 2.5mm skt wire is much greater then 27A, how big a safety margin skt wire manufacturers have worked into their stated ampages is anybodies guess, and I’m not going test skt wire until it melts to discover what is the absolute maximum of skt wire before it melts. But of course the stated AMPAGE is intended for CONTINOUS use (Or not) for a great many years, that is the life of buildings (Houses, businesses, factories, sky scrapers, etc), as buildings do NOT routinely need skt wire replacing, obviously!

Hence socket wire manufacturers do not specify RING AMPAGE per SKT WIRE diameter on their skt wire reels that I’ve ever bought, instead the approx specifying of RINGED skt wire is left to BRITISH STANDARDS. But IEE only stipulates the most commonly used skt wire, 1.5mm, 2.5mm & 4mm for RING circuit AMPAGE values (IEE 17th Edition, Pg44).

Obviously stated RING AMPAGE of skt wire can’t be less then stated AMPAGE of skt wire, and it is less then double. An incorrect assumption, is that ringing doubles ampage, it does not. For example, even if a RING circuit was an even loop, and the only LOAD was at the RING loop end, the flow of electrons (anions - and cations +) will NOT necessarily be drawn by the LOAD from SUPPLY in even amounts from each length of skt wire from the fusebox.
Hence RINGing is less then double: 1.5mm 20A x 1.6 = 32A (As stipulated by IEE 17th Edition), so this is 1.6 times the stated AMPAGE of the skt wire (32A/20A=1.6).
And since skt wire length depends on room size and next nearest skt/fixture, and watts used and the length of time a light/appliance is used for, varies widely, hence watts load drawn from each skt in a RING is likely to be different.
And to make my point more obvious in a RING circuit, if a skt wire is near to the fusebox, then the load will be drawn to nearest supply, hence the electrons will NOT flow evenly through both lengths of skt wire, INSTEAD the load draws electrons from the skt wire length nearest to the fusebox, hence since RINGING circuits AMPAGE maximum load depends on the nearest direction of supply for electrons to follow, hence quoted RING AMPAGE figures are/would be a very approximate guide. And since consumed watts will NOT necessarily be known hence IEE and other REFERENCE GUIDES also stipulate RING maximums in SQUARE METRE lengths, hence when consumed watts not known RINGED CIRCUITS maybe calculated solely using Square metre calculation, eg 4mm RING 100m2. Then electric contractors will plan circuits from calculating room/hall square metre dimensions, for ring circuits to be fitted, when watts maximum/average consumed unknown, etc.

IF YOU HAVE VIDEOS/ANIMATIONS/DIAGRAMS OF ELECTRONS FLOWING, ESPECIALLY IN RING CIRCUITS, I’D BE VERY INTERESTED IN SEEING THOSE.

TO REITTERATE, OBVIOUSLY IEE AND SKT WIRE MANUFACTURERS ARE VAGUE ABOUT SPECIFYING RING AMPAGE MAXIMUM VALUES, AS THESE ARE NOT ABSOLUTE CERTAINITIES AS THERE ARE MANY VARIBLES, HENCE RING AMPAGE MAXIMUM VALUES ARE JUST AN APPROXIMATE GUIDE. I think IEE (And similar) and businesses like Prysmian (Skt wire manufacturers) would be evasive about the topic of RING VALUES, even when asked directly about the following:

So you nonsense talkers, give it a rest & stop deliberately "wasting my time", and anybody who can add reliable approx ring ampages to the following, then please speak up:
1.0mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 15A)
1.5mm RINGED approx 30A to 32A (Not Ringed Ampage = 20A)
2.5mm RINGED approx 30A to 32A (Not Ringed Ampage = 27A)
4.0mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 36A)
6.0mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 46A)
10.0mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 63A)
16.00mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 85A)


ELEC GAS WATER autocalc 1st tab, scroll down

FUSEBOX MCB autocalc 3rd & 4th tab
MarkieSparkie said:
Strand ampage is slang, if you want to taken seriously it pays to use the correct terminology:- CURRENT is the quantity (its symbol is I) and it is measured in AMPERES (its symbol is A).

Take a look at BS7671, Table 4D2A, Reference Method 3 (Clipped Direct), Two core Cable (with or without CPC), Single Phase. This is the original source of the values you quote.
Looking at the columns and you will see that current rating of the conductors depend on a number of factors, how the cable will be erected (Reference Method), how many core are combined in the cable, material the conductor is made from, ambient temperature, conductor operating temperature and the cross sectional area of each conductor.
If you look at the whole of appendix 4 you will see a whole heap of parameters that one would have to consider to answer your question.
Therefore what probably appeared to you to be a straight forward simple question, is in fact much more complex and the reason you didn't get the snappy answer you were expecting.
It can all look quite complex and daunting, but don't give up, keep asking questions, the art is ask specific questions rather than all encompassing ones.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
 
srands,

Your talking absolute gibberish, and the stuff your linking too is so misleading, it could almost be considered dangerous!!!

In fact i don't think you have a clue as to what your even asking here You've been told that there are too many parameters to give a straight or simple answer to your question, .....but you seem to know better!!!
How about YOU telling us then???
 
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OK, how condescending! It is a simple question, that has a simple answer :
A very approximate RING AMPAGE per different skt wire diameter!
Click to expand...

If its simple why are you asking? work it out;)

For example, even if a RING circuit was an even loop, and the only LOAD was at the RING loop end, the flow of electrons (anions - and cations +) will NOT necessarily be drawn by the LOAD from SUPPLY in even amounts from each length of skt wire from the fusebox.
Hence RINGing is less then double: 1.5mm 20A x 1.6 = 32A (As stipulated by IEE 17th Edition), so this is 1.6 times the stated AMPAGE of the skt wire (32A/20A=1.6
Click to expand...
).

Thats Mr Kirchoff out of the history books then:D
 
no that's ambridge, similar to a wheatstones bridge but without the resistances.
 
"So you nonsense talkers, give it a rest & stop deliberately "wasting my time", and anybody who can add reliable approx ring ampages to the following, then please speak up:"



If you can tell us the installation method, the ambient temp, the length of the circuit, the earthing arrangement, cable grouping and what type of overload protection you are using then we can answer your question. One of the many questions you have asked is the max amp of whichever cable size you will be using. All the answers are in the tables in the brb but the cable itself can take 1.45 of its rating for up to an hour before it begins to melt.
 
i thought that was the characteristic of the overload device. 1.45x rated current for 1 hour before tripping.
 
This figure came from the cable manufactures so I've been informed, otherwise the cable would burn out before the overload protective device.
 
i would assume that the safe limit for the cable before it was damaged was 1.45xI,for 1 hour so MCBs are designed to trip before the cable overheated.
 
paul.m said:
This figure came from the cable manufactures so I've been informed, otherwise the cable would burn out before the overload protective device.
Click to expand...

telectrix said:
i would assume that the safe limit for the cable before it was damaged was 1.45xI,for 1 hour so MCBs are designed to trip before the cable overheated.
Click to expand...

You 2 are clearly wasting my time so I'm never, I mean never going to post on this thread again ...............I mean it never ...............I'm going onw












I know your still looking but I really mean it ......................













Stop looking now ....................
 
If my question is so ridiculously easy for you professional electricians/diyers (As available reference guides & equations either aren't complete, straight forward as they could be, or not really definitive or absolute), I realise nobody has answered my question, given the example, which socket wire (twin & earth), would you RING for the following circuit? (Summary: 3 skts total 32A, Metres total 60M's):

SKT D to A: 32A(TOTAL OF A+B+C), 20m's, Cumulative Count 0A
SKT A: 12A, AtoB 15m's, Cumulative Count 12A
SKT B: 14A, BtoC 20m's, Cumulative Count 26A
SKT C: 6A, CtoD 5m's, Cumulative Count 32A
see Spreadsheet example:

SO WHAT SKT WIRE/CABLE/TWIN&EARTH WOULD YOU USE ON THIS CIRCUIT, FOR A RING MAIN?
I bet none of you "pro leccy's" haven't got a serious suggestion for this simple example.

The only real question here is what is adequate SOCKET WIRE (Twin & Earth) for specific RING circuitS, two options (most recognised standards):

i) IEE 17th Edition Pg 44, 1.5mm or 2.5mm RINGED is adequate UPTO 32A only.
Which maybe OK for some house KITCHEN RING, but many may be greater then 32A. 4mm RING, 6mm RING, are the terminals big enough? (Yes, I know if it isn't, a length of socket wire, supply, load, is that skt wire AMPAGE ok).
The only other popular ring is SHOWER RING, 8KWp/h(33.3A) to 15KW p/h (62.5A) (These are averages, but obviously greater then 32A), guess TERMINALS on showers are big guess 4mm+ RINGED fits ok. Not every building has 1 shower, hence bigger fusebox/rcd/mcb, & not every building has sml kitchen: hotels, colleges, restaurants, so 1 big KITCHEN RING circuit or many MCBs.

ii) If AMPAGE greater then 32A, then the KIRCHOFF equation to work out the AMPAGE SPREAD OVER THE RING, then see which SOCKET WIRE (TWIN & EARTH) is adequate, is too bigger AMPAGE, next MCB, etc. However some variables have to be known (Or variables made up, as may not be known at this point!) the AMPAGE MAXIMUM at each socket and METRES distance between SOCKETS.
see Spreadsheet example:

Cheers

Stephan

RING AMP CALC: Add your comments/workings and upload/post

FUSEBOX MCB autocalc 3rd & 4th tab

ELEC GAS WATER autocalc 1st tab, scroll down


Also posted here without any success!:
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...guide-per-socket-wire-thickness-ampage-4.html
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...m-estimated-ampage-skt-wire-2.html#post241882
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...g-just-cooker-hob-extractor-3.html#post241768


​
 
makes me wonder why phony blair banned handguns
 
Not cable, you would need chr wire but make sure to ask the wholeseller in big capitals, or shout and gesticulate in a nonchalant manner.
 
DurhamSparky said:
bugs hows that rewire of your coming along.. all done and dusted mate!!?? no more shocks lol
Click to expand...

Should finish Friday, got a belt of the shower circuit in the loft (lashed up ) cooker hood wired to 13a plug (1.5 te with ccp chopped out ) had a meeting with solicitors surveyor today looks like it's gonna get nasty ,
 
OHHHHHH just what i like to here!! hope the landlord gets dragged to cleaners and back twice!!

that 4k he paid you will be a drop in ocean!
 
O do yourself a BIG favour SRAND , and don't dabble into something you OBVIOUSLY have ABSOLUTELY not the foggiest idea about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leave electrics to the likes of us professionals with YEEAAARS of experiance! even we do occasionally make mistakes,the differances being;we know when we make em,and we CAN correct them!!!!
 
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