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Discuss Self employment & Pimlico Plumbers court case ... in the Business Related area at ElectriciansForums.net

spinlondon

Forum Mentor
That’ll learn ‘em.
If they’d been reasonable and let him work just 3 days a week after his heart attack, the case wouldn’t have happened.
 

Gavin John Hyde

Electrician's Arms
the bloke who founded pimlico plumbers was on the news tonight, the guy who brought the court case was self employed for NI, tax and all HMRC purposes. But when he had a heart attack wanted paid sick leave and they said nope... you are self employed. so he took them to court... It seems he was happy being self employed for tax purposes to keep his money but when it suits wanted his cake and to eat it....
The owner is now writing to HMRC asking them to revisit the blokes tax affairs in light of the decision saying if he was an employee then back date his taxes accordingly! he cant have it both ways..... [personally I would take it on the chin and pay out, the amount they charge to hire out plumbers and sparks its water off a ducks back for them.
 
P

paleosparky13

I'd rather be dead than be a PAYE spark for a numpty sparkler firm. Disgusting.
 

Risteard

Respected Member
the bloke who founded pimlico plumbers was on the news tonight, the guy who brought the court case was self employed for NI, tax and all HMRC purposes. But when he had a heart attack wanted paid sick leave and they said nope... you are self employed. so he took them to court... It seems he was happy being self employed for tax purposes to keep his money but when it suits wanted his cake and to eat it....
The owner is now writing to HMRC asking them to revisit the blokes tax affairs in light of the decision saying if he was an employee then back date his taxes accordingly! he cant have it both ways..... [personally I would take it on the chin and pay out, the amount they charge to hire out plumbers and sparks its water off a ducks back for them.
They will also be liable for Employer's NI! No sympathy for Pimlico or that disease of a man Charlie Mullins.
 

DAvid Prosser

Electrician's Arms
An interesting argument. The branded product the forcing of hours and trackers would lead most people to believe he is indeed employed by a company, but then not paying PAYE, full national insurance rate as an employee would etc would point to being self employed. Not sure I really like either of them as both seem to want there cake and eat it.

If the supreme court are saying he was indeed "employed" and should be entitled the protection (haha) that can offer then surely the both parties are guilty of tax fraud ?
 

Risteard

Respected Member
An interesting argument. The branded product the forcing of hours and trackers would lead most people to believe he is indeed employed by a company, but then not paying PAYE, full national insurance rate as an employee would etc would point to being self employed. Not sure I really like either of them as both seem to want there cake and eat it.

If the supreme court are saying he was indeed "employed" and should be entitled the protection (haha) that can offer then surely the both parties are guilty of tax fraud ?
There is no evidence that he was complicit in the bogus self-employment. I suspect Pimlico force all of their employees to illegally pretend that they are self-employed.
 

derek

Regular EF Member
I think I might have to start firing off about 10 years of holiday pay claims :)
 
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PEG

Respected Member
This is a tricky one,which i could very easily stand and defend either party...

I was in a similar position,albeit many years back,where the tax office of a company i was doing 100% of my contracting for,disputed their payments to me,and my status as SE.

The rules then,included ownership of tools,insurance,advertising,alternative work,etc,and it got complicated. Basically,i took a chance (accountant rated at 80/20 :rolleyes: ) fronted them out,and continued as i was for another 4 years...

Good ole' HMRC cannot allow set-ups to evolve around the part time or gig economy,and not expect such carry-ons to appear. A ruling on this particular case,will have far reaching consequences.

The truth is, that there is not just one party,in this example,swinging the lead...google the details of the many reasons why,for some considerable period,it suited both parties :)
 

spinlondon

Forum Mentor
As far as the claim that this started over a claim for sick pay goes, I would take it with a pinch of salt.
Statutory sick pay is no more than what would be paid in Employment Support Allowance. In fact if you were to also claim Housing Benefit, receiving SSP is worse for you than receiving ESA.
Although SSP and ESA Pay the same amount, HB rules are such that any of the SSP which is above what would be paid as Job Seekers Allowance is taken into consideration when calculating HB. Whereas with ESA none is taken into consideration.
Again I would also take the claim about asking HMRC to look into the worker’s tax affairs with a pinch of salt.
It is more likely that the company has been told HMRC will review the matter and the company is attempting to pre-empt any bad publicity. HMRC will chase the employer for any unpaid NI or tax owing, not the worker.
I’ve been subcontracting through agencies now for about 12 years. The companies I have worked for don’t want to employ direct.
The few Government jobs around where workers have to be PAYE, it’s the agency which employs the workers.
That both parties benefit from the bogus Self Employment is unlikely.
Both Self Employed and PAYE can claim for the same or similar expenses, subsistence, travel, tools, laundry, phone, internet, etc.
The expenses can be either claimed from the Employer or at the end of year through Self Assessment.
Claiming from the Employer would be more beneficial as the expenses would be paid before tax and NI is calculated. Whereas claiming at the end of year will result in a tax rebate, in my experience overpaid NI is not refunded.
I haven’t even touched Holiday Pay, Bank Holidays, travel time, overtime rates, JIB benefits or training.
 
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Wilko

Electrician's Arms
In a large company I used to be very familiar with, contractors could work (directly or via agencies) for up to 2 years. Then they had to move on for a while :rolleyes: .
 
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paleosparky13

The cowboy spark firms (95% of them) will insist the PAYE 'employees' provide everything themselves. All tools etc. Just like it's very common to see a forklift driver bringing his own forklift to work every morning and that Secretary always brings here desktop p.c to work on the train. The Numptys will always respond with extra numptiness when you impose regulation on them. Its known as Numptys Law.
 

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