Discuss separating socket rings in CU in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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bobbych

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I have bought a new build house. which has a split load twin RCD CU.
As expected, each bank has a socket circuit (not labelled Up or Down).

Isolating one circuit turns off half of upstairs and half off downstairs and the other MCB in the CU isolates the other half.

while a decent spark should isolate and prove dead before work, Joe Bloggs maybe tempted to crack on thinking he has isolated the upper ring not realising that only half is dead.

Thoughts anyone????
 
R

RISElectrical

But when you have a fault on 1 circuit you'll be thankful that you still have power upstairs and down.

Simple answer is that Joe Bloggs should stick to 90s demin wear and stay out of your house.
 

telectrix

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yep, it's a better way than up/down split. as said before, joe bloggs stick to frying fish and chips. leave electrics to electricians.
 

oldtimer

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Also depends how the house was built I have seen this before where the sockets are wired in conduit so you may find that the house is wired in 2 halves ie front and back also you say this may cause problem with regards to isolation ie only half of the ground floor goes off but in reality when working on sockets you should always test each one as you work on them as a old spark said to me once dont think its dead son make sure it is or that will make sure you get an early grave
 
D

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Can't say that I like the new method.
Yes it complies with 314.1(i) and perhaps (iii).
However I would question whether it complies with (ii) and (vi)?
 

telectrix

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i would say (ii) would be complied with as long as CU was labelled. and (vi) if safe isolation was carried out.
 
D

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To my mind, the lable would have to detail exactly which sockets were controlled by the MCB, i.e. bed 1, bed 2, front room, hall, dinning room, etc.
Another problem, is that a CU is intended to be used by an ordinary person, as such safe isolation may not be something that they are aware of, let alone practice.
Even skilled persons have fallen foul of incorrect labelling, turn off upstairs, only to find that upstairs and down have been swopped over
 

telectrix

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agreed, but surely CU could be labelled "sockets front" and " sockets rear" as opposed to up/down. in an ideal world, each socket would be labelled with the MCB number, as is done on industrial.
 
S

shocking_eg

i prefer the simpler up and down method.

make sure your lighting on each floor is on the opposite RCD to the ring finals and your good to go :)
 

Murdoch

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Seeing Cu's with labels at all these days is a rareity.
 

telectrix

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especially when the new CU comes with all manner of pretty picture labels that only foreigners can understand. ( that's if their eyesight is keen enough to even see them anyway)
 

Murdoch

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Mine from today, needed to do a couple of "custom" labels on my trusty Brother printer too.

CU labelled.jpg





Took about 10 minutes in all. Theres no excuse for not labelling IMHO.
 

trev

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Your Homes Newcastle specced this method for their decent homes programme in Throckley, funnily enough the up down method was used everywhere else in town, The only real problem I can see is the lack of labelling as long as it;s tagged up it should be ok.
 

SPARTYKUS

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Hi spinlondon

I think you're trying to cover too many bases.

Really anyone messing about with an electrical 'point' in a house should power down the whole lot if not sure whats what. Or get a sparky in. And still prove its dead.

I don't think its an argument to counter excellent design & prior thought at the first fix stage.

Not trying to start an argument just like the mixed up socket layout.
 
S

shocking_eg

Mine from today, needed to do a couple of "custom" labels on my trusty Brother printer too.
Took about 10 minutes in all. Theres no excuse for not labelling IMHO.

did you have a nice DP main switch already installed by DNO for you to isolate the installation to change that DB ? :p :p
 

telectrix

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my argument would be in favour of a vertical split. in the scenario of, say 1 RFC being out of service, it,s safer to run an temp.extension lead say, from 1 living room to another on the same floor, than trail one all the way upstairs to get a supply for the TV/PC/ etc.
 
S

shocking_eg

my argument would be in favour of a vertical split. in the scenario of, say 1 RFC being out of service, it,s safer to run an temp.extension lead say, from 1 living room to another on the same floor, than trail one all the way upstairs to get a supply for the TV/PC/ etc.
good point, but can be right both ways IMO, i think its easier to identify which sockets are on the circuit. say its wired like you suggest, half and half split, front and rear etc.. what happens if a socket is in the middle of the house ? would that be classed as front or back ?

obviously you could label up all the sockets to DB circuit number but how many people want labels on their expensive chrome sockets ?

interesting subject, we all have our preferred ways :)
 
S

shocking_eg

or even better, radials !

i prefer them actually, no worries about spurs off of spurs !

then you could segregate circuits, IE living room and dining sockets, master bed and office sockets etc.....

I seem to be using radials on more jobs now, saves time on testing too :)
 

Murdoch

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telectrix

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5 grand to build an extension on the house to house the new CU.
 

imago

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It's one of those things where I don't really have a preference as there's no perfect way whatever you do. The house I was in today started out as a single ring for the whole house. Then an extension was built for kitchen and lounge which had it's own ring. Then the kitchen was changed and needed to be RCD protected so the board was changed. So now there is a ring for the kitchen, a ring for the rear of the living room, another ring for the rest of the house and the hall sockets are on a separate radial. So unless you make sure whatever you're working on is isolated and use labelling, instict, common sense or 'the force' as a guide only you're asking for trouble IMHO.

BTW, the lighting circuits are even more complicated and it's only a three bed semi.
 

Guitarist

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It's one of those things where I don't really have a preference as there's no perfect way whatever you do. The house I was in today started out as a single ring for the whole house. Then an extension was built for kitchen and lounge which had it's own ring. Then the kitchen was changed and needed to be RCD protected so the board was changed. So now there is a ring for the kitchen, a ring for the rear of the living room, another ring for the rest of the house and the hall sockets are on a separate radial. So unless you make sure whatever you're working on is isolated and use labelling, instict, common sense or 'the force' as a guide only you're asking for trouble IMHO.

BTW, the lighting circuits are even more complicated and it's only a three bed semi.
I bet labelling that CU was fun :)
 

imago

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I bet labelling that CU was fun :)
In the end I numbered the MCBs (same as the positions in board), numbered the cables with collars, then stuck the circuit description onto the inside of the cover (Hager flip down). It was the only way I could make enough room for the descriptions and make some effort at avoiding mix-ups/confusion further down the line.
 
P

pencilpusher

I have seen many "sockets left" and "sockets right" in homes less than about 10 years of age. All labelled as such too!
 
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