**Show Us Your Installs!!!**

[dazza1981]

Hey,

Just started one today, would like feedback, see where i could improve.

"Don't be too harsh, im only an apprentice and this is my first time doing a new board complete "
View attachment 24100
Finishing it off tomorrow hopefully - when the breakers show up to site ....

Yeah the boards up the wrong way mate.... just kidding good work mate and very neat indeed.
Did it take you 3 weeks to do though??? well done

 

[wozz]

Hi daviesjoe .... my comments are thus :-

Remember grouping factors may have an influence if your going to bunch tiewrap as you have.
Once you have fitted the internals and OL devices your cable terminations will require identification due to your methods here, which N/E belong to which L are not easily visual identifiable as the internal busbar section with cover the entry point of most of the cables you can't rely on the actual no of the terminal you connect to you should in theory be able to drop all cables out and be able to easily identify which is which.


Welcome to the forum you are indeed a brave lad to show us your install on your first visit asking for our advice --good on yer!

Are you staying this because there appears to be no identification on the neutral and earth bars or are you saying all terminations should have?

 

[daviesjoe]

Yeah the boards up the wrong way mate.... just kidding good work mate and very neat indeed.
Did it take you 3 weeks to do though??? well done

It does look a little wonky now you mention it, thought the spirit level was out haha

Cheers, surprisingly it only took 30mins. Would be neater if i could have had more time, but building sites are a nightmare.

 

[Darkwood]

Are you staying this because there appears to be no identification on the neutral and earth bars or are you saying all terminations should have?

Regardless of whether terminals are physically marked up or not the cables requires suitable sleeve markers or tape markers because it isn't easy to identify which E and N belong to which L - if you can clearly follow the cable to where has been split from the outer sheath on say a T&E then you don't need to identify the core but in the Pic above the entry point is going to be hidden by the gear tray thus he is required to identify all cores... same if you were coming into a board in singles.
He will find out how rough his firm is if he asks his boss for ID sleeves and he says not to bother.

514-1-2.

You tend to find house bashes never bother putting on core Ident's and often not required as its just a simple visual task to see which T&E the belong to but when you cant follow it back you require to ID the cable cores for the purposes of maintenance, testing and alteration.

 

[wozz]

Whilst i agree with your thinking a minute in that board with a screwdriver and long nose pliers and i would be able to identify the conductors for one cable. Id say if the terminals are marked id say the OP has complied with 514.1.2, by its arrangement with corresponding terminals which are numbered. 514.1.2 doesnt say anything about must be able to identify all conductors of a cable just by looking.

As i say i agree with your thinking and workmanship standards i dont think 7671 is asking for cabling in the switchgear in this case to be marked.

 

[daviesjoe]

I would put markers on the cables if i was going to leave them all cable tied together. In bigger 3-phase boards we tend to mark them, as its sometimes a field day trying to find corresponding N & E's.

 

[Darkwood]

Whilst i agree with your thinking a minute in that board with a screwdriver and long nose pliers and i would be able to identify the conductors for one cable. Id say if the terminals are marked id say the OP has complied with 514.1.2, by its arrangement with corresponding terminals which are numbered. 514.1.2 doesnt say anything about must be able to identify all conductors of a cable just by looking.

As i say i agree with your thinking and workmanship standards i dont think 7671 is asking for cabling in the switchgear in this case to be marked.

Its mainly used industrial and commercial but the regs do apply the same to domestic - its regardless of the terminals been numbered the Earth should be easily identifiable to it corresponding L an N when not in its terminations - pulling boards apart to ID this goes beyond the meaning of the regulation ... its one of those regs often overlooked in the domestic realm but it still is applicable. You can usually figure if its required by removing all the wires from their terminations and if you cannot easily and visually see which cores belong together then you need to mark them.

Yes i might sound like the regulation police a bit and going a bit overboard but just expressing the requirement and not saying its always necessary but try ignoring this on the bigger sites you'll soon find out how keen the Clark of jerks can be if not your scheme provider.

 

[wozz]

We are talking about 7671 minimum compliance here if a clerk of works wants it i think that is more than 7671 is asking for and therefore would be in a spec somewhere. If we were talking about very large boards here I think you could have some argument but in a small domestic board i dont believe it is required. Yes the regs should be applied to all install but that doesnt mean blanket regs, if this was the intention 514.1.2 would be far more explicit in its wording. 'reasonably practicable' is used in the reg, as i said with the fuseboard in question one minute and i will be able to identify all conductors from a cable, sounds reasonable to me. On a huge three phase board which may have had the cabling not run sensibly like behind centeral bussbars for neatness this may be far far longer and may involve dismantling, we are now possibly into the realms of beyond 'reasonably practicable' but even that is up for debate as with terminals numbered the conductors are still 'arranged' so may well still satisfy the reg.

For me cable markers are not required for the fuseboard pictured. 514.1.2 is far too wooley to apply in this instance i think.

 

[Darkwood]

We are talking about 7671 minimum compliance here if a clerk of works wants it i think that is more than 7671 is asking for and therefore would be in a spec somewhere. If we were talking about very large boards here I think you could have some argument but in a small domestic board i dont believe it is required. Yes the regs should be applied to all install but that doesnt mean blanket regs, if this was the intention 514.1.2 would be far more explicit in its wording. 'reasonably practicable' is used in the reg, as i said with the fuseboard in question one minute and i will be able to identify all conductors from a cable, sounds reasonable to me. On a huge three phase board which may have had the cabling not run sensibly like behind centeral bussbars for neatness this may be far far longer and may involve dismantling, we are now possibly into the realms of beyond 'reasonably practicable' but even that is up for debate as with terminals numbered the conductors are still 'arranged' so may well still satisfy the reg.

For me cable markers are not required for the fuseboard pictured. 514.1.2 is far too wooley to apply in this instance i think.

I do get your drift and not totally against your thinking but as you may realise Im very conservative regarding regs and although I don't really bother with domestic I would in the OP case Number the cores up - the installer here has the benefit of knowing his work he's installed and thus may be complacent as to bother with marking up if say following the cores back would require stripping down of the board. Consider the installer did all his work and accidentally mixed N up in the N block ... all following Electricians now are set with the possibility of dropping out a N from an opposing circuit by accident and although he may have safely isolated the board he may subject an insulation test to a circuit that has sensitive equipment on it thinking he testing to another cable core...

To this day i still see registered Electricians confusing the order of the N and E block and in some cases just not bothering to try and unless you can follow them back to confirm then you have the real possibility of having to disconnect all the cables and lift the main busbar carriage out while the live tails still connected, can you seriously tell me you have never come across a old wylex etc where the cables were either singles or so jammed up it took unnecessary time sorting it out just to start testing... and you say its really not for the domestic realm.

If you cannot as ive commented before simply follow cable cores to their original cable for identifying the corresponding cores then you will be subject to the regulation regardless of the nature of the building, If you take step to make it easy to ID cable then no problem you could even run a trunking above the DB and strip all the cores back into the trunking as it gives easy access to visually follow with nothing more than maybe a cable wiggle.

You shouldn't soften your approach to the regs just because your in domestic it applies just as strong as it does in a 36way 3phase panel.... Considering that these big panels often provide the necessary room to make cables easy to follow its the case that a 15way DB in a house may be subject to this regulation more so than the industrial set up... all though i mark all mine as the mark of professionalism and pride in my work.


No need to number these according to the Regs but it adds that extra bit of professionalism, as well as picking a board to match the paint work ..

 

[wozz]

thnkyou for the grown up debate darkwood.

I agree with the sentiment of your post, and the standard of which you are promoting, i just dont think 514.1.2 asks for it, and with the old system a simple domestic fuseboard with no cable markers would or should have attracted a code 4. i think i will just agree to disagree with you. And i have no pictures to show :smiley2:

 

[Darkwood]

thnkyou for the grown up debate darkwood.

I agree with the sentiment of your post, and the standard of which you are promoting, i just dont think 514.1.2 asks for it, and with the old system a simple domestic fuseboard with no cable markers would or should have attracted a code 4. i think i will just agree to disagree with you. And i have no pictures to show :smiley2:

We see each others side that i agree and on that note Id agree to disagree as i see we both hold strong slightly differing opinions that arises from the often debated topic of regulation interpretation - at the end of the day it aint going to burn the house down and anyone in the board should be competent to be there so minimal risk to health if they know their job, as for me I routinely ID all cables in DB's regardless of requirements and nature of the building .....probably a trait of my panel building where ID is essential.

 

[Engineer54]

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I hope those SWA cables with the coloured tape markings, entering the side of that DB aren't single core jobbies?? !!!! lol!!

 

[Darkwood]

View attachment 24119
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I hope those SWA cables with the coloured tape markings, entering the side of that DB aren't single core jobbies?? !!!! lol!!

Your Sherlock skills need a polish Eng54 ... you can follow the cores up to the top 3 mcb's like I'd do that anyway lol

 

[ipf]

Your Sherlock skills need a polish Tel ... you can follow the cores up to the top 3 mcb's like I'd do that anyway lol

Tel ? Bit obvious that dark. Think he's referring to the markings on the swa's, even if they are a mixture of old and new colours.lol.

 

[Darkwood]

Tel ? Bit obvious that dark. Think he's referring to the markings on the swa's, even if they are a mixture of old and new colours.lol.

Yep got Tels post i just read on another thread in my head lol... tape is random marking as they all come out of floor same place its a highly technical ID system

 

[Engineer54]

Your Sherlock skills need a polish Eng54 ... you can follow the cores up to the top 3 mcb's like I'd do that anyway lol

It was a tongue in cheek comment, and yes i did see where the cores were going!! lol!!

 

[ipf]

2010/11, before and during work.

 

[ipf]

Outside compactor unit and one db

 

[Stroppy]

Not my install, but I found this novelty clothes rack made of 20mm conduit parts in the attic of a house!

Some of the joints weren't brilliant....

 

[Robotstar5]

Could be a market for them?, you can even flat-pack them for posting.