Sockets on Skirting

[Mark Wright]

Hi, is there any Regulation for old properties in regard to the Height of a socket? Seem a bit confused not sure I've heard of any of this on 2365.

 

[freddo]

Not for old properties, but they should be installed in such a way that they won't be easily damaged by feet, vacuum cleaners etc. Above the skirting board is recommended, especially as it gives more room for the flex or plug in power supplies. Older surface sockets were a lot more compact so it was easier to mount them higher up on the skirting than a current UK surface box.

 

[Mark Wright]

2365 hasn't even mentioned this

and searching caused some conflicting results.


ok so in most cases using judgment Skirting board is a bit low and flex could be damaged.

 

[freddo]

See reg 553.1.6

 

[James360]

I am about to rewire my daughters house a 1900 forecourted terrace is the any height requirements for the mounting height for sockets in there

 

[R-fur]

Building regs say that sockets and switches in new and rewired houses should be accesable to people in a wheelchair.
Min 400 to the bottom of a socket
Max 1200 to the top of a light switch

 

[Julie.]

I am about to rewire my daughters house a 1900 forecourted terrace is the any height requirements for the mounting height for sockets in there

Building regulations, part M

Min/max heights for everything from cu to switches, through socket outlets etc.
[automerge]1583006817[/automerge]
Oops, cross posted!

Btw, part M applies to new buildings or parts, so you can replace in a position no worse than existing, but anything new must be compliant

 

[Dave OCD]

I didn't think Part M was enforceable on rewires of old properties.

 

[westward10]

It would only apply to a new build or substantial alterations/change of use to an existing build.

 

[James360]

hi there will be no new building work other than some internal stud wall being repalced or moved slightly would part m apply in that case otherwise its just an old house being rewired
there will be a new kitchen and bathroom being installed

 

[multimick]

if unsure about socket heights on refurbs a friendly chat with bc officer always helps and gets them onboard.

 

[Julie.]

Where possible, any new work should be in accordance with part M.

So replace sockets in the same place, but in the new kitchen, place in accordance with part M unless that socket/switch etc is in the same place as existing

 

[Mark Wright]

See reg 553.1.6

Thanks

553.1.6 A socket-outlet on a wall or similar structure shall be mounted at a height above the floor or any
working surface to minimize the risk of mechanical damage to the socket-outlet or to an associated plug and its
flexible cable which might be caused during insertion, use or withdrawal of the plug

 

[westward10]

Where possible, any new work should be in accordance with part M.

So replace sockets in the same place, but in the new kitchen, place in accordance with part M unless that socket/switch etc is in the same place as existing

Part M is irrelevant on a rewire unless substantial changes have altered the original intention of the build.

 

[Andy78]

Where possible, any new work should be in accordance with part M.

So replace sockets in the same place, but in the new kitchen, place in accordance with part M unless that socket/switch etc is in the same place as existing

I believe customer requests and requirements should come above regulations that don't apply to the particular work. Especially in domestic installations.
[automerge]1583008922[/automerge]

Building regs say that sockets and switches in new and rewired houses should be accesable to people in a wheelchair.
Min 400 to the bottom of a socket
Max 1200 to the top of a light switch

There is no such requirement on a rewire unless it is part of a substantial development overseen by building control. And even then discretion and customer requests can have a say, just as in new builds.
[automerge]1583009132[/automerge]

This is the main issue with low situated sockets, but any height that avoids this stress on the flex is ok.

 

[Dave OCD]

I saw a bungalow rewire a couple of years ago where the original light switches [which had tubing in the walls to flush boxes] had blank plates fitted and new wiring had been dropped down in trunking to surface boxes beside them at 1200mm from the floor. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Mark Wright]

This is why I posted seems to be a bit of confusion, personally I'd go with BS7671

From Building Regs Part M
"
Services and controls
1.18 To assist people who have reduced reach, services and controls should comply with all of the
following.
a. Switches and sockets, including door bells, entry phones, light switches, power sockets, TV
aerials and telephone jacks, serving habitable rooms throughout the dwelling have their centre
line 450-1200mm above floor level, as shown in Diagram 1.5.
b. Consumer units are mounted so that the switches are 1350-1450mm above floor level."

Looking at this thread

Part M regs? socket heights and other important regs

Hi All, For my own knowledge I would like to easily access some of the fundamental regulations such as minimum distances for sockets and locations of 'stuff' to comply with current regs. Ive a copy of the 17th edition but I struggle to find anything even with the table of contents! I need...

www.electriciansforums.net

and BS7671 as long as its safe then old buildings are ok.

 

[davesparks]

2365 hasn't even mentioned this

and searching caused some conflicting results.


ok so in most cases using judgment Skirting board is a bit low and flex could be damaged.

2365 is a qualification in the theory side of electrical installation and should cover electrical science and theory and electrical regulations and laws.
It is not a course in the building regulations and so you wouldn't necessarily expect it to include them (other than part P maybe)

 

[cliffed]

Building regs say that sockets and switches in new and rewired houses should be accesable to people in a wheelchair.
Min 400 to the bottom of a socket
Max 1200 to the top of a light switch

450 mm I do believe

 

[telectrix]

450 mm View attachment 56073 I do believe View attachment 56073View attachment 56073

seems perfectly clear to me.

 

[Midwest]

I’m going to sit on the fence here, so to speak. One of my last jobs, was to completely rewire a property.

I recall reading somewhere, that completely rewiring a property, was considered a substantial change, and that as such all aspects of Building Regulations should apply. Let’s not forget, that although we might not consider Part M applies, we would still considered Part B and fit a basic fire alarm system. Each Building Approved Document defines building work, and how it applies to new buildings and work on existing buildings.

For me, I reused the positions of existing outlets outlets, as the client did not want their positions altered in relation to each room, e.g. still wanted a switch by an existing door, and their were at a suitable height; it was no less unsatisfactory in relation to requirements etc etc.

However, if a significant amount of existing outlets positions were moved or relocated, e.g. walls were removed, doors relocated, then all aspects of Part M should apply IMO.

 

[SparkyChick]

This is what Approved document M actually says:-

"Application 0.2 The recommendations of this volume of this approved document apply to newly erected dwellings, and dwellings undergoing material alteration, only. They do not apply to the extension of a dwelling."

"Material alterations 0.11 Where a dwelling is subject to a material alteration, the building should be no less compliant with requirement M4(1) than it was prior to the building work taking place."

Requirement M4(1) opens with this:-

"In the Secretary of State’s view, requirement M4(1) will be met when a new dwelling makes reasonable provision for most people, including wheelchair users, to approach and enter the dwelling and to access habitable rooms and sanitary facilities on the entrance storey. Reasonable provision is made if the dwelling complies with all of the following..."

It cannot be much clearer... Part M only applies to new dwellings, and even then only to the entrance storey. If you are rewiring a property, the rule is simple... it must be no less accessible than it was before you started.

I would suggest raising sockets off the skirting board is an improvement, and I would certainly not rewire a property such that they were still in the skirting. Likewise I wouldn't force Part M heights on new work if the rest of the property is laid out differently, it's madness and is totally over the top.

 

[Mike Johnson]

A good friend of ours has a holiday let in Spain, he altered the whole house to conform to the equivalent part M regulations and more, he is full all year around, unlike the others in the same complex, in fact he has to turn down bookings because his calendar is full, those that have buy to let properties should take note I think because they are opening up a different source of income.

 

[Julie.]

In my first post (actually the merged bit) I pointed out that it wasn't mandatory, however these building regulations are the 'latest and greatest ' so realistically represent the standard to which we should aim for.

If we are doing new work, wherever reasonably possible we should aim to provide the installation to the latest standards, we shouldn't be using any "get out of gaol" clause in order to perpetuate outdated practices.

It does sensibly allow you to re-wire and re-use existing positions to prevent unsightly installations and minimise disruption, as an example, my own home cu is in an awfully awkward position, but I re-used the position because in practical terms to do anything else given all the wiring in situ is unreasonable.

But, in renovating a full kitchen, then installing to the latest standards makes absolute sense - more so than sticking to "old fashioned" thoughts

 

[Midwest]

This is what Approved document M actually says:-

"Application 0.2 The recommendations of this volume of this approved document apply to newly erected dwellings, and dwellings undergoing material alteration, only. They do not apply to the extension of a dwelling."

"Material alterations 0.11 Where a dwelling is subject to a material alteration, the building should be no less compliant with requirement M4(1) than it was prior to the building work taking place."

Requirement M4(1) opens with this:-

"In the Secretary of State’s view, requirement M4(1) will be met when a new dwelling makes reasonable provision for most people, including wheelchair users, to approach and enter the dwelling and to access habitable rooms and sanitary facilities on the entrance storey. Reasonable provision is made if the dwelling complies with all of the following..."

It cannot be much clearer... Part M only applies to new dwellings, and even then only to the entrance storey. If you are rewiring a property, the rule is simple... it must be no less accessible than it was before you started.

I would suggest raising sockets off the skirting board is an improvement, and I would certainly not rewire a property such that they were still in the skirting. Likewise I wouldn't force Part M heights on new work if the rest of the property is laid out differently, it's madness and is totally over the top.

In fairness, all the Approved Documents open with the same perhaps not exactly, the same lines & wording. But a Building Inspector will still require compliance as applicable across the range of documents, for just an extension.

So common sense would prevail; as said if the existing positions of outlets were being used, then why make more holes in a wall to put them at Part M heights. But I would agree against putting one room at Part M heights. If everything is changing, then Part M heights should be the norm.

Edit; my socket outlets are below 450mm in my new build. Should I complain to my MP

 

[jackhammerJIM]

In my area Part M applies to new build houses only . Im on with a barn conversion at the moment which has never even had power and the building inspector insists part M is not applicable .

Im not a fan of having accessories in an extension at a different height to the rest of the house .

 

[SparkyChick]

Just to clarify... as I'm inclined to do, I was trying to clarify the actual position of what the building regulations state. As evidenced by some posts there are differing views.

Personally I encourage customers to update as appropriate, and if given free reign I apply the rules set out in Part M unless it would create a visually stupid situation like accessories at different heights (although I will if the client explicitly requests it - as happened the other day where the client didn't want the socket outlet to be visible above the top of his TV unit... his house, his choice).

My point really was more about what the documents actually say vs. what people believe/have been told they say.

 

[Midwest]

Personally I encourage customers to update as appropriate, and if given free reign I apply the rules set out in Part M unless it would create a visually stupid situation like accessories at different heights (although I will if the client explicitly requests it - as happened the other day where the client didn't want the socket outlet to be visible above the top of his TV unit... his house, his choice).

Funnily enough, I put a new socket for in for TV in my new build (not everyone likes tv's in the corner of rooms) at the same height as all my other Part M sockets. That was until herindoors ordered me to get new tv unit................then I had to lower the new socket!

 

[davesparks]

My father was a building inspector, albeit quite an old fashioned one, and his take on it was that he was generally happy with any new build which was built for a customer to have accessories at heights other than part M heights as long as it was discussed at a sensible stage in the job. If the house was being built by a developer to be sold later then part M was structly enforced.
The logic is that if the house is being built by/for a specific customer then they know what height they want/need them at and whether any people with disabilities needed to be catered for.

His best story about this one was a guy who used a wheelchair and was having his own specially adapted house built, he didn't want part M heights as he thought they were ugly and impractical.

 

[Mark Wright]

I see there's various books on the Building Regs for Electricians ill try and get a copy to familiarize myself with them.

 

[R-fur]

450 mm I do believe Source URL: Sockets on Skirting - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/sockets-on-skirting.183948/page-2#post-1610923
Source URL: Sockets on Skirting - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/sockets-on-skirting.183948/page-2#post-1610923
That's interesting, Its 400 in Scotland.

 

[telectrix]

re; thread title. is this what's referred to as "upskirting"? as some snowflakes are trying to ban it.

 

[Megawatt]

I am about to rewire my daughters house a 1900 forecourted terrace is the any height requirements for the mounting height for sockets in there

James it should be 25 mm to the bottom of the socket

 

[DPG]

James it should be 25 mm to the bottom of the socket

Is this a US figure?

 

[jackhammerJIM]

James it should be 25 mm to the bottom of the socket

Seems rather on the low side of too low .

 

[DPG]

Seems rather on the low side of too low .

I'm guessing inches?

 

[jackhammerJIM]

I'm guessing inches?

25 inches is 635 mm rather on the high side of too high

 

[DPG]

25 inches is 635 mm rather on the high side of too high

Fathoms them. .

 

[jackhammerJIM]

Fathoms them. .

Is he a pirate ?

Google is telling me a fathom is 6 feet .

 

[DPG]

Is he a pirate ?

Google is telling me a fathom is 6 feet .

Some of the sockets not far from me are 6 foot underwater at the minute, so could be right!

 

[jackhammerJIM]

Some of the sockets not far from me are 6 foot underwater at the minute, so could be right!

12 foot ! to top or bottom of box mate ? I dont think it matters

 

[DPG]

12 foot ! to top or bottom of box mate ? I dont think it matters

Perhaps fit IP rated sockets

 

[jackhammerJIM]

Perhaps fit IP rated sockets

Do they make an ip chrome flat plate usb ?

 

[Megawatt]

Seems rather on the low side of too low .

It is Jack I should have said 12 inches. It’s sad but we just never did go with the metric system in school. All I know is 25.4 mm equals 1 inch LOL

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I should have said 12 inches

This is in the UK though, MW. If approved doc M applies it's 15 3/4 inches, although on this job it probably won't apply so the height can be whatever the customer prefers.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Arn't the heights given approximately only, or is it 12 inches to the top middle or bottom of a socket?

 

[Megawatt]

Arn't the heights given approximately only, or is it 12 inches to the top middle or bottom of a socket?

Mike to my knowledge we don’t have a requirement on height for sockets except new this year on Washing machines and dryers. We have to install the sockets above them so you don’t have to move them to unplug them

 

[Mike Johnson]

I try to leave a 100mm gap between the washing machine and the tumble dryer and close up the dishwasher on one side, the gap has a white skirting matching panel that the three sockets are on for the three appliance's positioned close to the wall and forms a tray slot, I have a photo on the system somewhere, but can't seem to find it at the moment, will look later and post it.

 

[Mike Johnson]

As always with these things, I could not find the original, so took another:

 

[telectrix]

It is Jack I should have said 12 inches. It’s sad but we just never did go with the metric system in school. All I know is 25.4 mm equals 1 inch LOL

me neither. when i went to school, we used metric system (MKS) in Science classes, but in wood work/metalwork/ etc. it was inches. our teacher was ex-RAF WWII Hurricane pilot. who said meters are for putting shillings in (nickels in USA).