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moggy1968

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We have just moved into a new rented space. It's a grade 2 listed building but also includes a commercial building at the rear (not listed) which has a large roof space suitable for PV which could then supply the main house.

There is no Gas or oil to the property, everything is electric. It's the kind of house that would benefit enormously from PV and the landlord is keen on me installing a free system where I take the FiT (and we may buy the property in a couple of years).

The problem, well, when he bought the place (prior to a light refurbishment) it had an EPC of....wait for it.........9!! It's potential was just 13. I don't know what it would get now he has installed loft insulation and we're waiting on secondary double glazing, but I can't imagine it being much better.

So, a house that is perfect for PV because everything is electric, is effectively barred because the economics don't add up without the FiT

crazy
 
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Strima

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Arms
Esteemed
It's a crazy world we live in. With it being grade 2 you'll also need a sympathetic conservation officer, met a few good ones in the past but heavily outweighed by the jobsworth fkrs...
 
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moggy1968

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  • #3
thats why I want to stick the PV on the commercial property which isn't listed, but has a cellar shared with the house where I could run the cable
 

Strima

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Arms
Esteemed
Makes sense to me and I'm intrigued about the property. I love working on old houses and the history that comes with them. Seen and old windmill constructed of brick using a spiral method, the spark who put the sockets in followed the bricks assuming everything was level, he got a surprise.. :lol:
 
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moggy1968

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  • #5
it's always a problem in this places, where the hell do you take your reference line from!
 
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provr6

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  • #6
Thats the worst thing about the EPC. The people who would benefit most are those who are off gas. It's nearly impossible/very expensive to meet a D rating on the EPC in such circumstances.
 

Gary K

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DIY
thats why I want to stick the PV on the commercial property which isn't listed, but has a cellar shared with the house where I could run the cable
Is not everything in the grounds that come with a listed building covered in such a way that it still requires permission?
A couple who I used to deliver to required permission to put a system on an old tin garage roof in the grounds that was about 60m away from the listed house- it took weeks and they nearly missed out on the original FITS. cut as a result
 
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moggy1968

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  • #8
yes, if it falls within the curtlage of the listed property. I had this when I put a system on my mum and dads garage, a single story monstrocity with just a 5deg angle on the roof but the house is a listed 16th century farmhouse. although the garage is a a 1960s monstrocity it falls within the curtlage of the listed building so permission was needed. The panels were only going to be at 20deg but it still got rejected by the planning officer (who was a talentless, ignorant xxxx) but it got passed on appeal. The intractability of planners is one reason why they haven't replaced their garage with something more attractive. The intractability, aggravation and demands of the planners make it fairly unappealing.

The commercial building, however, is on it's own land so I don't think will be a problem. Even if it is I think it would get passed eventually as it's at the back of the property (the one on the folks house faced onto the rd)
 
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SRE

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
We have just moved into a new rented space. It's a grade 2 listed building but also includes a commercial building at the rear (not listed) which has a large roof space suitable for PV which could then supply the main house.

There is no Gas or oil to the property, everything is electric. It's the kind of house that would benefit enormously from PV and the landlord is keen on me installing a free system where I take the FiT (and we may buy the property in a couple of years).

The problem, well, when he bought the place (prior to a light refurbishment) it had an EPC of....wait for it.........9!! It's potential was just 13. I don't know what it would get now he has installed loft insulation and we're waiting on secondary double glazing, but I can't imagine it being much better.

So, a house that is perfect for PV because everything is electric, is effectively barred because the economics don't add up without the Fit

crazy
Welcome to my world :banghead:
 
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moggy1968

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
I think if I do end up owning the property it may still be worth it at 9p. If I redo the storage heaters to come on at timed intervals during the day I could probably make some dramatic reductions in the electric bill. but I don't think it would be viable for a customer, only if I do all the work myself and at trade pricing, especially if I go for a bigger system. I reckon I could get 10kW easy on the commercial roof.

Do we know if the 9p tariff will still be there under the new tariffs?
 
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SRE

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  • #11
Down to 7.1p I think, but you've got the increase in export to compensate for it.
 
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moggy1968

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  • #12
don't intend to be exporting too much!!
Storage heaters in every room so I am intending to take them off economy 7 and put them onto the main board. I'll then have them coming on at various times during the day by using time switches, probably 6 storage heaters in total, plus the immersion.

Does anyone know how many points a 4kW and 10kW PV system would be worth on the EPC? I presume the points vary depending on how much you install. Bit of a long shot but you never know!!
 
I think it would be worth installing just for the free juice per year to be honest. forget the fits ...

when I started doing pv people where more intrested in the fits but now they are looking at the bigger picture on fuel bill savings
I know people say well it only says £200-£280 per year but thats based on using 50% exporting 50% if you change your ways
and export 50% and use 75% then it changes the SAP alot

whats 250 x 25 = £6250 saved on fuel bills based on 50% 50%

imagine using 75% it would pay for the system and more then add your fits and export ....

Fuel bills are rising and people will be looking at this more than the fits soon.
 
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SRE

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  • #15
I agree to a point, our customers seem to be much more interested in the electricity saved, but 50% use is only workable on smaller systems which cost more. It's almost impossible to use 50% of what you're generating. I work from home, we have a 4kwp system and we're reducing fuel bills by 28 - 30%. Some of the new stuff for diverting to immersion heaters is interesting but doesn't help the 50% of houses with combi boilers and battery back up hoofs the price up a lot and in my opinion is still not cost effective or environmentally friendly.
 
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moggy1968

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  • #16
In an all electric house like this I think the savings could be considerable, especially if I swap the storage heater circuits to come on in the daytime.

My mum has a 4kW system, not ideally placed as it's at 20deg, and she is saving an average of £35 a month on her electric, so about 400 per year. On that basis, if I change our useage sensibly, I reckon even at 7.5p I could make it work, bearing in mind the reduced cost of installation. I haven't had an electric bill yet, but in a 4 bedroom all electric house with an EPC of G it aint gonna be small!
 
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sedgy34

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  • #17
This is the government for ya
moving the goalposts surely that should be exempt
dont forget you may need planning too as its on listed land
 
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SRE

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  • #18
In an all electric house like this I think the savings could be considerable, especially if I swap the storage heater circuits to come on in the daytime.

My mum has a 4kW system, not ideally placed as it's at 20deg, and she is saving an average of £35 a month on her electric, so about 400 per year. On that basis, if I change our useage sensibly, I reckon even at 7.5p I could make it work, bearing in mind the reduced cost of installation. I haven't had an electric bill yet, but in a 4 bedroom all electric house with an EPC of G it aint gonna be small!

Sorry if I sound a bit thick but won't you need the heat in Winter when the pv isn't going to be generating? Even at 10kwp that would only produce maybe 4kwp in the Winter over a whole day and sometimes we're only producing 200w in a day so 500w on a 10kwp system. We have electric underfloor heating in one room and the pv doesn't touch it in the Winter.

What's your Mum's secret, using 2,850 kwh of what's generated a year is great, must be around 75%? Other than heating everything else is electric and we've saved about £125 ish (26% of the 3450 we generated)over a year. We do all the washing, ironing, lawnmowing, dishwashing and tumble drying through the day when we're generating so there's only really the evening meal that's using any extra.
 

Worcester

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Mentor
Arms
SRE what do you do about the kids, mine come home the Xbox goes on, the PS3 goes on, the two computers go on, the MP3 players and amps go on :party:, !!!! (And then they sleep till lunchtime in the hols :sleeping: )

And when do you get the time to do the lawnmowing :)
 
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SRE

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  • #20
I have to confess - my kid is 24! He sings on cruises so he's away from home most of the time :) I used to mow the lawn through the day because I couldn't sleep and did a lot of work through the night. Now I mow the lawn through the day because I'm waiting for the phone to ring!!
 
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SRE

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  • #23
Are you not busy ?
Where abouts in the country are you?
North West, almost all enquiries are from people with properties that can't make the D rating. There's hardly anything going on in a 40 mile radius of where we are.
 

jason121

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Arms
I am having trouble with a couple trying to achieve the dreaded D.
Dont worry MCS have released there new draft paper maing harder for us all
 
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PengEF

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  • #25
What was the thinking behind EPC of D or better to qualify for the FIT?
 

Worcester

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Mentor
Arms
We had our property EPC'd today.

The Energy Assesor had the same opinion though as like SRE we have a LOT of oil fired properties around here with no mains gas, al lot of old housing stock built in the 30's with no cavity wall insulation, so they struggle to get a D, wheras in his mind it is exactly those properties that would benefit from the PV.. he reckoned it was about face, and the A and B's don't need it .... so the more you need it the higher your FIT should be :) and make it attractive and easy for those that need it , and not so attractive for those that don't.
 
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SRE

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #29
We had our property EPC'd today.

The Energy Assesor had the same opinion though as like SRE we have a LOT of oil fired properties around here with no mains gas, al lot of old housing stock built in the 30's with no cavity wall insulation, so they struggle to get a D, wheras in his mind it is exactly those properties that would benefit from the PV.. he reckoned it was about face, and the A and B's don't need it .... so the more you need it the higher your FIT should be :) and make it attractive and easy for those that need it , and not so attractive for those that don't.
Make that Energy Assessor Prime Minister!!!!! He's got my vote :)
 
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finchy

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
I do feel for you chaps, passing an EPC on any of our jobs we get is a given.

I think even if there wasnt this EPC crap, business wouldnt be any better. PV is back to a cottage industry, from 2 week (last yr) now to planning/"hoping" for 1 a month. The mad rushes are getting less and less November was stupidily busy, February was managable, August we're done and dusted although one might come through (pending planning). Some would call it a hobby rather than a business !!
 
I do feel for you chaps, passing an EPC on any of our jobs we get is a given.

I think even if there wasnt this EPC crap, business wouldnt be any better. PV is back to a cottage industry, from 2 week (last yr) now to planning/"hoping" for 1 a month. The mad rushes are getting less and less November was stupidily busy, February was managable, August we're done and dusted although one might come through (pending planning). Some would call it a hobby rather than a business !!
Same here, there is just not that level of interest anymore and we have been advertising!
 
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SRE

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #32
I do feel for you chaps, passing an EPC on any of our jobs we get is a given.

I think even if there wasnt this EPC crap, business wouldnt be any better. PV is back to a cottage industry, from 2 week (last yr) now to planning/"hoping" for 1 a month. The mad rushes are getting less and less November was stupidily busy, February was managable, August we're done and dusted although one might come through (pending planning). Some would call it a hobby rather than a business !!
We'd definitely have more work if we didn't have to deal with EPC's but probably not the same amount as last year. I'd hate to go back to the stresses of November though - a happy medium is all we're asking for.
 
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PengEF

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #33
We had our property EPC'd today.

The Energy Assesor had the same opinion though as like SRE we have a LOT of oil fired properties around here with no mains gas, al lot of old housing stock built in the 30's with no cavity wall insulation, so they struggle to get a D, wheras in his mind it is exactly those properties that would benefit from the PV.. he reckoned it was about face, and the A and B's don't need it .... so the more you need it the higher your FIT should be :) and make it attractive and easy for those that need it , and not so attractive for those that don't.
That's kind of why I asked Worcester as I would have thought those with lowest EPC are the ones that need it the most.
 

Worcester

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Mentor
Arms
Me thinks they want to turn the focus off FIT onto their new baby the 'Green Con' oops, Green Deal, which will allow a commercial loan at 7% taken as a second charge on your property to pay for your PV to get you up to a D or better. And of course being green con oops deal, funded means they don't have to allow for FIT (I know who pays FIT they just have to count it in and out..) But then, maybe I'm a cynic..

It definitely is linked up with the Green Deal and overalll energy programme of trying to bring the housing stock up to D, unfortunately they have shot themselves in the foot by making attaining D a minimum requirement.

(See elswhere on Green Deal, all sectors predict a DROP in stalltions of cavity wall, double glazing, loft insulation when the Green Deal comes in...)

So the answhere to you question is Politics, as opposed to carbon / CO2 reduction.
 
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moggy1968

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #35
I disagree worcester

I firmly believe the Government wants centralised energy production so they can stay in the pay of the big 6.
They don't want people generating and using their own electricity, looks bad on the profit and loss you know, upsets the shareholders over their breakfast.
 

Worcester

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Mentor
Arms
@Moggy1968 OK, but all they have to do to achive that is to modify the FIT like germany where you choose to get to use the power your generate at one rate or export it at another. (another comprehensive review...so I guess they have discounted that)

The reason deemed is set at 50% is that the average export is far higher - probably nearer 75%, as people are yet astute enough to fully manage what is generated, so the big 6 and all the other FIT providers are actually laughing all the way to the FREE Energy Bank ... (I still haven't worked out quite where / who the unmetered export is credited to..)
 
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moggy1968

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #37
I think one thing that is stopping them is the lack of smart metering, they don't want to pay for that.
It also still leaves the fact that people are using their own energy. The big six don't want that, they want to produce everything because thats what makes profits
Personally I would be happy with a lower FiT and better export rate.
If they bought the energy at 10p, they are selling for around 15 so they are still making a tidy pound or 2 on that.
 
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zigawen5

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  • #38
2
This Christmastide of Ottawa Escorts 1786, with the War settl'd and the Nation bick?ering Ottawa Asian Escort itself into Fragments, wounds Ottawa Escort bodily and ghostly, great and small, go aching on, not Ottawa Asian Escorts ev'ry one commemorated,— nor, too often, even recounted. Snow lies upon all Philadelphia, from River to River, whose further shores have so
 
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MCS Renewables

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  • #40
European law says all countries in Europe have to have smart metering by 2018 or pay a significant fine.

Thats every electrical supply in every country in Europe . Sweden nearly completely done and Italy not far behind. France over 30% done. Germans started at the start of this year.

New EU data protection laws could prove expensive for UK smart meter rollout

Smart meter rollout: two speed Europe as Germany lags behind its neighbours - Sentec
 
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moggy1968

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #41
Uk behind everyone else?
Uk unprepared?
UK leaving it til the last minute?
UK Government sticking their heads in the sand?

surely not!
 
Got a last minute order, which we can install next week! Down side is that it is a new build without any central heating installed yet so guess what....? No EPC can be done!

So customer is scrambling round trying to get a boiler, tank and controls mounted before the assessor can go in....oh joy of joys!
 
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Somecamel

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  • #43
I thought an EPC assessor can 'Assume' what is going in and do the EPC on that, might be worth asking
 
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Ian-LS

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  • #44
I thought an EPC assessor can 'Assume' what is going in and do the EPC on that, might be worth asking
Unfortunately predicted EPCs are not acceptable so it means new builds where the PV is installed at first fit stage will have to wait until the property can get an EPC of D before applying for the feed in tariff, which frankly is ridiculas as building regs mean new builds now have to have at least a C rating I think (it could be B) so its illegal for a house to be built and not ahve an EPC of D or above
 
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MCS Renewables

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #45
Agree with above but the Domestic Energy Assessor is not interested if the equipment works or not, it only has to be fixed on site.

Therefore if the boiler is mounted and the cylinder and stat is in place and the controls are on the wall and can be photographed its good enough.
 
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zeljuga

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #46
If DEA follow same rule then picture of segment EWI is sufficient as proof of superior insulation? open call for misinterpretation.
 
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provr6

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #47
Unfortunately predicted EPCs are not acceptable so it means new builds where the PV is installed at first fit stage will have to wait until the property can get an EPC of D before applying for the feed in tariff, which frankly is ridiculas as building regs mean new builds now have to have at least a C rating I think (it could be B) so its illegal for a house to be built and not ahve an EPC of D or above
If that's the case then it's an absoulute disgrace. The EPC requirement should then be waived for new builds as it's a given the property will get a D rating. EPC requirement should be scrapped altoghether come to that.
 
Agree with above but the Domestic Energy Assessor is not interested if the equipment works or not, it only has to be fixed on site.

Therefore if the boiler is mounted and the cylinder and stat is in place and the controls are on the wall and can be photographed its good enough.
That is what the energy assessor has advised us but the customer is now running round like a blue ar$ed fly trying to get the boiler, switches etc on site and mounted over the weekend so the assessment can happen - it'll be close but we'll get it done!

EPC....grrrrrrr - i'm off now for a stiff drink!
 
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