Use of FP200. Will it get messed up by too much flexing?

[1Justin]

I have electrics to add in a listed barn. It's a unlined shell of a building, grubby cobwebby beams and timbers with external claddding. Customer must have all black wiring so as to hide it as much as possible. Everything will be clipped with metal accessories. Trunking/conduits are too big and because the whole building is utterly wonky, nothing which is straight or right angled will fit anyhow.
The BLACK thing has me going, so prevents T&E.
I immediately said to the customer I could run it in H07RN-F which is defined as "heavy duty" (Hence OK for permanent wiring re 521.9.1 and BS50565-1. ).
The slimmer, cheaper and easier to use H05RR-F (Which is most rubber cable in distributors) is not defined as "heavy duty" but merely "tough". This gets into semantics, but sticking with the regs and BS50565-1, I must have "heavy duty" (that does seem to be a technical terminology) cable for permanent wiring. Hence will probably make myself insist on H07RN-F

An alternative might be black FP200. I have to admit I've not used FP cable in the past. My thinking is, I'll be up a ladder and scaffold looping and flexing this round 300 year old dirty beams. I'm concerned that the FP200 being stiff with it's alloy tube will end up a complete mess if it gets flexed much during install. - Would I be right in that prediction?

 

[Rosco]

As long as it’s rolled off the drum straight on cable runners and clipped sensibly I don’t think you’ll have a problem with it.

 

[1Justin]

It'll be more like "weaving" I recon from the look of this place.

 

[ruston]

What about Pyro? Or will the budget not allow it?
The location seems Ideal for it.

 

[Wes1000]

NYY - Hi Tuff cable??

 

[Taylortwocities]

NYY-J Cable

Sorry wes. just seen your post. great minds think alike?

 

[Wilko]

NYY-J Cable

Hi - I don't use it myself, as there seems to be advice that it's not approved under BS7671 for fixed installations, but I may be mistaken (?). See this notes -
NAPIT | Is non-Standard Cable Acceptable? - http://professional-electrician.com/features/napit-non-standard-cable-acceptable/
And
The Approved Cables Initiative (ACI) :: ACI issues warning to installers over cable claims - http://www.aci.org.uk/news/aci-issues-warning-installers-over-cable-claims

 

[Spoon]

Hi - I don't use it myself, as there seems to be advice that it's not approved under BS7671 for fixed installations, but I may be mistaken (?).

Think you may be mistaken mate. We have talked about SY cable not being suitable for 'fixed installations' and that in them posts NYY-J was suggested as a cable that can be.

 

[LankyWill]

FP is pretty tough and takes a beating on commercial jobs when dryliners are bashing it about boarding. I think it should be fine as long as your gentle with it, NYY-J is very heavy duty and very versatile but can be a pain to terminate.

 

[1Justin]

Thanks for the links. and suggestions. I'll check those out before I quote (bearing in mind NIC "non standard" comments.)

 

[Pete999]

Thanks for the links. and suggestions. I'll check those out before I quote (bearing in mind NIC "non standard" comments.)

Remember the NICEIC do not make the rules, they like to think they do but they don't, wonder how many Old tags I'll get for that comment?

 

[Midwest]

I've only used it once, on a barn conversion. It was a bit trouble some, especially at the DB end with the mass of cables. I was only involved in the 2nd fix, it's almost impossible to do without the appropriate stripping device.

 

[Pete999]

Remember the NICEIC do not make the rules, they like to think they do but they don't, wonder how many Old tags I'll get for that comment?

Blimey 1 so far thanks Dave appreciate that

 

[Deleted member 109422]

Hi Justin
I have used FP a number of times whilst helping to install fire alarm systems. You are correct in asking if it can get messed up if it is flexed too much. From my experience the answer is yes, it will get messed up, you can not treat it the same as pvc twin and earth. But if you make sure it is uncoiled in a controlled manner and the plumbers are not constantly standing on it then things will be fine. It can be made to look incredibly neat when clipped correctly, a bit like pyro.

As for stripping FP, from what I remember we just used a stanley knife, scoring around the outer sleeving, obviously checking to make sure the conductors beneath the internal foil shrouding we not damaged, then bend the cable a few times and the outer sheath snapped. Then sleeve the bare cpc and add the ferrule.

I am sorry if others think this is bad advice but this is my experience..

all the best
Sym

 

[Pete999]

Remember the NICEIC do not make the rules, they like to think they do but they don't, wonder how many Old tags I'll get for that comment?

Aye up there's another

 

[Deleted member 109422]

Hi Justin
I have used FP a number of times whilst helping to install fire alarm systems. You are correct in asking if it can get messed up if it is flexed too much. From my experience the answer is yes, it will get messed up, you can not treat it the same as pvc twin and earth. But if you make sure it is uncoiled in a controlled manner and the plumbers are not constantly standing on it then things will be fine. It can be made to look incredibly neat when clipped correctly, a bit like pyro.

As for stripping FP, from what I remember we just used a stanley knife, scoring around the outer sleeving, obviously checking to make sure the conductors beneath the internal foil shrouding we not damaged, then bend the cable a few times and the outer sheath snapped. Then sleeve the bare cpc and add the ferrule.

I am sorry if others think this is bad advice but this is my experience..

all the best
Sym

 

[Deleted member 109422]

Edit...oppps...

 

[Deleted member 109422]

Edit...oppps...excuse posting issues!

Newbie!

 

[Dillb]

Remember the NICEIC do not make the rules, they like to think they do but they don't, wonder how many Old tags I'll get for that comment?

I love it when people come on here and “the NICEIC said” as it usually shows how little training they have had.

 

[Pete999]

I love it when people come on here and “the NICEIC said” as it usually shows how little training they have had.

Know what you mean Dillb, reckon I know of one who will bite, let you lnowif he does.

 

[Midwest]

I love it when people come on here and “the NICEIC said” as it usually shows how little training they have had.

No different to someone saying I went on a electrical forum last night; a bunch of them said FP2000 is a pain to work with. Only difference is the NIC charge you for their opinions

 

[Dillb]

No different to someone saying I went on a electrical forum last night; a bunch of them said FP2000 is a pain to work with. Only difference is the NIC charge you for their opinions

Not really, a forum is a open debate which anyone can join in. The way the NICEIC brigade go on, its the be all and end all of topic as they have said so.

 

[davesparks]

I don’t see why you need a fire performance cable for this application so don’t really see a reason to use FP200.
Have you considered BS8346 cable such as flexshield? It is designed to be a general wiring cable for surface or flush installations and would be more cos effective than micc these days

 

[Midwest]

Not really, a forum is a open debate which anyone can join in. The way the NICEIC brigade go on, its the be all and end all of tooic as they have said so.

tooic?

 

[Dillb]

tooic?

edited so it now makes sense.

 

[Midwest]

Not really,

Yes it is.

 

[Dillb]

Yes it is.

I explained the differences yet you chose not to quote that or explain why.

 

[Midwest]

I explained the differences yet you chose not to quote that or explain why.

Did you, thats just your opinion, I've already given mine. See, democracy is thriving . And I've not even given you a disagree

 

[Dillb]

Its about debate and understanding, yet you choose to do neither.

 

[Midwest]

Its about debate and understanding, yet you choose to do neither.

Its not one that would be a runner at the debating society. Your only annoyed 'cos you made a spelling mistake.

 

[Dillb]

Its not one that would be a runner at the debating society. Your only annoyed 'cos you made a spelling mistake.

You must debate in mass then.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Have I missed something here. The non-standard cables issue originated from NAPIT, not NICEIC.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Have I missed something here. The non-standard cables issue originated from NAPIT, not NICEIC.

 

[Midwest]

Have I missed something here. The non-standard cables issue originated from NAPIT, not NICEIC.

Thats just being picky.

 

[Midwest]

You must debate in mass then.

I've been to the Oxford Union a few times; well turned up in an official capacity.

 

[telectrix]

use bare micc. after a few years it will be black.

 

[ruston]

You can get it in black pvc.

 

[elsparko]

as long as you dont squash the tube when youre bending it you can get a decent curve on it for 90* bends, play about with a few bits to get used to forming it, pretty much the same as doing conduit without the spring

 

[suffolkspark]

NYY-J all the way mate, easy to strip and terminate, tough as old bulls ears, available in up to 5 cores and 6mm (may be more but havnt used before)
Its solid core so sets nicely and is to an IEC standard so perfectly allowable to be used, black 12mm and 14mm clips spaced 40cm apart and your laughing

NOTE:HO7RNF is actually a flexible cable so you should imo avoid that for fixed wiring. (Unless you really fancy bootlacing EVERY end?)

 

[elsparko]

NYY-J all the way mate, easy to strip and terminate, tough as old bulls ears, available in up to 5 cores and 6mm (may be more but havnt used before)
Its solid core so sets nicely and is to an IEC standard so perfectly allowable to be used, black 12mm and 14mm clips spaced 40cm apart and your laughing

NOTE:HO7RNF is actually a flexible cable so you should imo avoid that for fixed wiring. (Unless you really fancy bootlacing EVERY end?)

40cm? easier to just clip to the length of the hammer as you go, 40cm needs marking out etc

 

[suffolkspark]

My hammer is exactly 40cm

 

[elsparko]

My hammer is exactly 40cm

and if youre using the back of your snips to clip, elbow to wrist makes a good spacing

 

[Toneyz]

Not really, a forum is a open debate which anyone can join in. The way the NICEIC brigade go on, its the be all and end all of topic as they have said so.

They'll find a reg it doesn't comply with so they can have a full day revisit £££££.

 

[Toneyz]

use bare micc. after a few years it will be black.

Not if it's a piece that Pete's done!!!! (revert to the story of his apprentice days)

 

[Dillb]

They'll find a reg it doesn't comply with so they can have a full day revisit £££££.

Since when did what the NICEIC write the regs? If the assesor is wrong you mention it and point it out, not just lick arse like some do on here

 

[davesparks]

NOTE:HO7RNF is actually a flexible cable so you should imo avoid that for fixed wiring. (Unless you really fancy bootlacing EVERY end?)

Why avoid flex for fixed wiring?

 

[1Justin]

Why avoid flex for fixed wiring?

No real need AFAICT, provided it's "heavy duty" 521.9.1 (which leaves I think according to this definition only H07RN-F) but it needs lots of clips. Saying that, in a totally wonky timber barn space where the customer will be frowning at visible bits of cable, being able to bend it easily without kinking sideways or having to keep it flat while threading it about. (T&E), I see advantages in flex. I agree ideally should be bootlaced which is a bit of a pain.

 

[Deleted member 109422]

Okay, I have admitted elsewhere on this forum that I am an idiot, but I am an old thick skinned idiot who can take a bit of stick so here goes...

What on earth is boot-lacing?

Is it just doubling up the end of a cable at the connection point? If so then this generally needs to be done with T+E if there is only one cable in a switch or socket.
Go on....shame me. I do not know the meaning of boot-lacing.

While I am here....clipping a flexible cable around beams and trying to hide cables is going to be HUGELY easier than using FP.

All the best,
Sym

 

[Deleted member 109422]

Is boot-lacing twisting the strands of the flexible cables together?
Which is what I would do when connecting multiple flexes.
Note...I would never twist T+E cables together.

Twisting flexible cables together is not that much of a pain in the bum.

Using FP200 can definitely be a pain in the bum.

Sym

 

[Spoon]

Go on....shame me. I do not know the meaning of boot-lacing

Bootlace Ferrules. Used on multi-stranded cables.
Something like this kit here