Would it be ok to replace an earth nut on a ceiling light with a cable / cable and loop?

[SRW2022]

I am replacing my ceiling rose with a metal 4 spot light bar, the cables are to short to be able to secure them unless I release the block from the light it’s self.

I can then wire it with ease but can’t get the block back into the fixed earth nut.

Would it be ok to replace this nut with a piece of earth cable / earth cable and loop? There are 3 earths going into it from the ceiling.

Appreciate the advise!

 

[SparkyChick]

In my view you would be best advised against replacing it with a loop of wire. The wire could easily pop out from under there, be crushed to the point of failure and then the case will have no earth. The correct course of action is to extend the conductors coming from the ceiling.

Possibly with some nice maintenance free connectors such as Wagos, being sure the earth is properly sleeved. That would allow you to properly terminate both ends and then mount the lamp on it's base.

 

[SRW2022]

In my view you would be best advised against replacing it with a loop of wire. The wire could easily pop out from under there, be crushed to the point of failure and then the case will have no earth. The correct course of action is to extend the conductors coming from the ceiling.

Possibly with some nice maintenance free connectors such as Wagos, being sure the earth is properly sleeved. That would allow you to properly terminate both ends and then mount the lamp on it's base.

Appreciate your advise, I was thinking of something like the below? Not physically looping the wire.

 

[SparkyChick]

So this is where my view may differ from other peoples.

The light is supplied as an assembly. That assembly was designed (I appreciate some lights are just thrown together) and theoretically it was approved/tested to certain standard, one of them being the quality of the earth connection... perhaps the most important connection of the whole assembly.

Let's say you replaced the earth connection with that and something happened, a fire started and the seat of the fire was found to be the light. It could be argued that the manufacturer holds some liability if it was found that there product was poorly designed/manufactured. But that would only hold true providing it was as assembled, which it would no longer be because you would have modified it.

You would have effectively taken on the role of designer and along with it the responsibility for ensuring it was safe.

With my super cynical view out of the way, the other side of this is that you're not going to be able to put something like that into place without cutting the cables that run through that hollow bar, so there you'll be introducing more connections... more connections = more possible points of failure.

Seriously, the simplest solution is to extend the cables that are too short.

 

[SRW2022]

So this is where my view may differ from other peoples.

The light is supplied as an assembly. That assembly was designed (I appreciate some lights are just thrown together) and theoretically it was approved/tested to certain standard, one of them being the quality of the earth connection... perhaps the most important connection of the whole assembly.

Let's say you replaced the earth connection with that and something happened, a fire started and the seat of the fire was found to be the light. It could be argued that the manufacturer holds some liability if it was found that there product was poorly designed/manufactured. But that would only hold true providing it was as assembled, which it would no longer be because you would have modified it.

You would have effectively taken on the role of designer and along with it the responsibility for ensuring it was safe.

With my super cynical view out of the way, the other side of this is that you're not going to be able to put something like that into place without cutting the cables that run through that hollow bar, so there you'll be introducing more connections... more connections = more possible points of failure.

Seriously, the simplest solution is to extend the cables that are too short.

Yes I realise now you’ve pointed out, that I can’t get the nut off without cutting other wires! I initially thought I could just screw it off.

So the best option will be to extend all 3 of the earths coming from the ceiling into individual wago connectors? With either side of the connector sleeved?

I haven’t actually tried to pull some more cable through yet to be honest as I didn’t want to pull to hard, but perhaps this is an option to?

 

[SparkyChick]

Be careful if you try and pull cable through. If it's 1mm, it can be incredibly easy to damage the outer sheath.

I'd get a 4 or 5 way push fit Wago or a 5 way lever Wago and connect all the earths at the ceiling level where the cables come through the ceiling and then run a single sleeved earth from there to the lamp. If you're trying to squeeze two neutrals into that terminal block, it would be easier to put a 3 way Wago at ceiling level and run a single neutral conductor to the lamp temrinal block.

 

[SRW2022]

Be careful if you try and pull cable through. If it's 1mm, it can be incredibly easy to damage the outer sheath.

I'd get a 4 or 5 way push fit Wago or a 5 way lever Wago and connect all the earths at the ceiling level where the cables come through the ceiling and then run a single sleeved earth from there to the lamp. If you're trying to squeeze two neutrals into that terminal block, it would be easier to put a 3 way Wago at ceiling level and run a single neutral conductor to the lamp temrinal block.

It sounds like extending the cable is definitely the better option, I appreciate your advise.

I haven’t used Wago connectors in the past, so with then I can run the 3 earths - or 2 neutrals into a 2 or 3 way wago and I only need 1 cable coming out the other side into the terminal block in the lamp?

 

[SparkyChick]

For most lighting applications, if you're not using them on the regular a box of 4 way push fit connectors will provide the maximum number of termination points you'll need (typically there are 3 cables... loop in, loop out and switch and the most conductors in a single connector will be 4... the earth... the others only need 2 and 3 ways but if you're not using them regularly, buying all the different ones is a costly exercise).

Wago 2773 Series 32A 4-Way Push-Wire Connector 80 Pack - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Connectors for junction boxes. Convenient wiring via extremely compact design. Transparent housing for visual inspection, ensuring the conductor is inserted correctly. Any combination of suitable conductor sizes is possible. Suitable for solid and stranded...

www.screwfix.com

You'll typically need to cut off the existing exposed copper due to damage by the screws and then you need about 8-9mm stripped and just push the conductor home into one of the slots of the connector. If you make a mistake, you can extract the solid conductors by pulling the cable out of the connector whilst twisting the conductor in the connector.

If you don't feel confident doing it yourself, let us know your location and we can try and find a local member who could provide assistance.

 

[SRW2022]

For most lighting applications, if you're not using them on the regular a box of 4 way push fit connectors will provide the maximum number of termination points you'll need (typically there are 3 cables... loop in, loop out and switch and the most conductors in a single connector will be 4... the earth... the others only need 2 and 3 ways but if you're not using them regularly, buying all the different ones is a costly exercise).

Wago 2773 Series 32A 4-Way Push-Wire Connector 80 Pack - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Connectors for junction boxes. Convenient wiring via extremely compact design. Transparent housing for visual inspection, ensuring the conductor is inserted correctly. Any combination of suitable conductor sizes is possible. Suitable for solid and stranded...

www.screwfix.com

You'll typically need to cut off the existing exposed copper due to damage by the screws and then you need about 8-9mm stripped and just push the conductor home into one of the slots of the connector. If you make a mistake, you can extract the solid conductors by pulling the cable out of the connector whilst twisting the conductor in the connector.

If you don't feel confident doing it yourself, let us know your location and we can try and find a local member who could provide assistance.

Thank you, seems like something I would be confident to carry out myself.

The picture below is the correct connections, just for clarity.

So I can run the 3 earths into a wago, then 1 new to the fitting. The 2 neutral with 1 new then to the fitting.

I will leave the switched live and the ring main as it is.

 

[littlespark]

Take care that the single black with red sleeving doesn’t get mixed up with other blacks. Single is the switched live, other two is neutral.

Also isolate the circuit… as all those reds are permanently live.


WAGOs are not the be all and end all. I don’t think you can buy them separately.
Just good quality connector block will suffice.

 

[SRW2022]

Take care that the single black with red sleeving doesn’t get mixed up with other blacks. Single is the switched live, other two is neutral.

Also isolate the circuit… as all those reds are permanently live.


WAGOs are not the be all and end all. I don’t think you can buy them separately.
Just good quality connector block will suffice.

Thanks you, yes I’m aware of the circuit and will make sure it is isolated.

In regards to the new wire, would the attached be suitable? I would strip it from the grey out sheaf and just use the one neutral and the one earth.

Prysmian 6242Y Grey 1mm² Twin & Earth Cable 10m Coil - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Grey sheath. Blue and brown core. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

 

[SRW2022]

For most lighting applications, if you're not using them on the regular a box of 4 way push fit connectors will provide the maximum number of termination points you'll need (typically there are 3 cables... loop in, loop out and switch and the most conductors in a single connector will be 4... the earth... the others only need 2 and 3 ways but if you're not using them regularly, buying all the different ones is a costly exercise).

Wago 2773 Series 32A 4-Way Push-Wire Connector 80 Pack - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Connectors for junction boxes. Convenient wiring via extremely compact design. Transparent housing for visual inspection, ensuring the conductor is inserted correctly. Any combination of suitable conductor sizes is possible. Suitable for solid and stranded...

www.screwfix.com

You'll typically need to cut off the existing exposed copper due to damage by the screws and then you need about 8-9mm stripped and just push the conductor home into one of the slots of the connector. If you make a mistake, you can extract the solid conductors by pulling the cable out of the connector whilst twisting the conductor in the connector.

If you don't feel confident doing it yourself, let us know your location and we can try and find a local member who could provide assistance.

Hi Sparky,

I’m going to be doing the light this week, as I’ve been busy with work

Can I just confirm, although there will be 2 neutral / 3 earths going in to the connecter, ir is fine for only 1 to be coming out the other end? Even though there is more than 1 wire feeding in?

Thank you!

 

[SparkyChick]

Absolutely, it's no different from using standard screw terminal blocks... it's just a much more reliable connection made in a different way.

 

[SRW2022]

Absolutely, it's no different from using standard screw terminal blocks... it's just a much more reliable connection made in a different way.

Thank you, really appreciate your advise.

Am I right in saying I will need 1.5mm cable?

 

[SparkyChick]

I used to only use 1.5mm cable for lighting, but I've seen the light and now a days I only use 1.0mm. For Wagos, it really needs to be a solid core. You can get 7 strand cable into them but it is a bit of a pain.

 

[SRW2022]

I used to only use 1.5mm cable for lighting, but I've seen the light and now a days I only use 1.0mm. For Wagos, it really needs to be a solid core. You can get 7 strand cable into them but it is a bit of a pain.

What would you recommend?

 

[SRW2022]

I used to only use 1.5mm cable for lighting, but I've seen the light and now a days I only use 1.0mm. For Wagos, it really needs to be a solid core. You can get 7 strand cable into them but it is a bit of a pain.

 

[SRW2022]

I used to only use 1.5mm cable for lighting, but I've seen the light and now a days I only use 1.0mm. For Wagos, it really needs to be a solid core. You can get 7 strand cable into them but it is a bit of a pain.

Thank you Sparky for all of your help!