Discuss Consumer unit change - How do you do it? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Dont change many consumer units, usually go ok but had one today that I did cheap for next door neighbour (Why is it always the ones you do cheap for friends and family that bite you). Anyway changed the board etc, all ok. Then came testing and obviously have various alterations in the last 40yrs, still had original wylex rewireable fuses.

I found Neutral ring missing - A socket had a neutral out.
Conservatory had two sockets, a light and an automatic window opener all spured off a spur in the kitchen with no grommets in the back box (Apparently done by an electrician)
One socket of two gang no neutral - just change face plate
One socket no neutral (Spur) - Just had to wago and put blank plate as obviously a junction box under the floor
There was some others as well.

Anyway in my haste to speed up testing I did insulation resistance with a couple of sockets off (I know stupid), when powered on RCD kept tripping if I removed socket neutrals it was fine. Finally tracked it down to a really tight socket in the kitchen that had a damaged neutral cable, managed to sort everything.

Started at 9.30, was running around in the dark finished about 8pm with everything ok, im totally shattered.

I am thinking of insisting on a full EICR before I do a consumer unit change again, at least you know what you are getting into mostly and you dont spend an entire evening trying to chase down issues as once you have changed the board and especially adding RCD's your kinda committed.

Just wondering do others do EICR beforehand or just wing it?

If you just wing it how often do you have issues?
 
Always do a good bit of testing before changing a CU and plenty of visuals. If not. they tend to bounce back, as you found out.
Gives you a good idea. You can generally tell the nasties before beginning but not always.....one good reason for pre testing.
 
Dont change many consumer units, usually go ok but had one today that I did cheap for next door neighbour (Why is it always the ones you do cheap for friends and family that bite you). Anyway changed the board etc, all ok. Then came testing and obviously have various alterations in the last 40yrs, still had original wylex rewireable fuses.

I found Neutral ring missing - A socket had a neutral out.
Conservatory had two sockets, a light and an automatic window opener all spured off a spur in the kitchen with no grommets in the back box (Apparently done by an electrician)
One socket of two gang no neutral - just change face plate
One socket no neutral (Spur) - Just had to wago and put blank plate as obviously a junction box under the floor
There was some others as well.

Anyway in my haste to speed up testing I did insulation resistance with a couple of sockets off (I know stupid), when powered on RCD kept tripping if I removed socket neutrals it was fine. Finally tracked it down to a really tight socket in the kitchen that had a damaged neutral cable, managed to sort everything.

Started at 9.30, was running around in the dark finished about 8pm with everything ok, im totally shattered.

I am thinking of insisting on a full EICR before I do a consumer unit change again, at least you know what you are getting into mostly and you dont spend an entire evening trying to chase down issues as once you have changed the board and especially adding RCD's your kinda committed.

Just wondering do others do EICR beforehand or just wing it?

If you just wing it how often do you have issues?
I pretty much always do at least the circuit testing part of an EICR first, often a little while prior to the planned board change, to avoid the running around.

At least if there is already RCD protection you know shouldn't have random tripping when you add them into the mix.

Tbh the easiest changes are probably an old rewireable Wylex where it's all original wiring, there aren't that many sockets and no-one has been fiddling.

In later ones or where there are extensions or DIY owners etc I'd say it's maybe 50-50 with ring continuity, especially if they've had the kitchen done at some point. And it's almost never possible to fully track down the ins and outs of a lighting circuit where there are lots of fancy fittings, exterior floods, etc - always much easier with just pendants!

And some of the worst in terms of testing or working out which wire is which are the new build flats 2000-2010. Always find some weird oddity when doing EICRs on them.
 
Thanks, I dont think ill ever get consumer unit changes round where I am if I charge for a EICR then remedial then change the board. To many people who will change the board for 150-200 labour plus a cheap BG screwfix special.

Cant really compete with that and frankly not interested in competing, and those guys just sting the customer if there are issues or bodge it so it works.

I never tend to quote for anything apart from commercial and EICR's, just tell the customer my hourly rate and give an estimate on number of hours plus estimate on parts.
 
I think the way forwards these days is to do a Full eicr on the property at say £20 per circuit.
at the same time while roaming round the house price up the board change and all the remedial work like missing bonding , replace broken accessories etc etc
if every Thing checks out ok on testing , no broken rings , borrowed neutrals etc
put your quote in For a simple board change and offer to knock 50% the eicr when you do the consumer unit and all remedial work...

if they opt not to do the board then you just invoice for the eicr and leave it at that

thoughts ?
 
I think the way forwards these days is to do a Full eicr on the property at say £20 per circuit.
at the same time while roaming round the house price up the board change and all the remedial work like missing bonding , replace broken accessories etc etc
if every Thing checks out ok on testing , no broken rings , borrowed neutrals etc
put your quote in For a simple board change and offer to knock 50% the eicr when you do the consumer unit and all remedial work...

if they opt not to do the board then you just invoice for the eicr and leave it at that

thoughts ?


Sounds like a good plan, although dont think u need to knock off the 50%. I have started refusing giving quotes. I just find too much crap wrong, maybe im unlucky but I now just say I charge £35 per hour, it should take approx x hours depending how many issues I find and parts should be around x cost. I just think its fairer that I get paid for the hours I work and it always seems to take longer than I thought as I always seem to find problems from a previous cowboy or diyer.

They should be stricter on who can work on electrics and mandate every house have an eicr every 10yrs and gas safety every 5yrs. Given the things I see on a daily basis either im too by the book or I dont know how there are not more fires and shocks. I guess most shocks never get reported
 
Pre testing has always been advocated on here and makes perfect sense. Recently did a board change and a partial rewire. Split board to RCBO’s. Lighting circuits tripped after change but fortunately ...thanks to John Ward my suspicion of a borrowed neutral on the two way light circuit proved correct.
 
Sounds like a good plan, although dont think u need to knock off the 50%. I have started refusing giving quotes. I just find too much crap wrong, maybe im unlucky but I now just say I charge £35 per hour, it should take approx x hours depending how many issues I find and parts should be around x cost. I just think its fairer that I get paid for the hours I work and it always seems to take longer than I thought as I always seem to find problems from a previous cowboy or diyer.

As a customer, the problem with opened ended pricing is that it's often used by the sort of people who like to gouge on price.

I don't mind being told that a job can not be undertaken on the basis of a fixed price, but I do expect to be given a ball park figure and an explanation about why that price may not be firm. Perhaps it would be best to explain upfront to customers how different their new board will be in terms of protection for them and their property and the impact that even minor issues with existing wiring might have? That way you'll get many customers onside with the safety aspect - obviously some customers will care more about price than safety, but perhaps those aren't the sort of customers you want to work for anyway...
 
As a customer, the problem with opened ended pricing is that it's often used by the sort of people who like to gouge on price.

I don't mind being told that a job can not be undertaken on the basis of a fixed price, but I do expect to be given a ball park figure and an explanation about why that price may not be firm. Perhaps it would be best to explain upfront to customers how different their new board will be in terms of protection for them and their property and the impact that even minor issues with existing wiring might have? That way you'll get many customers onside with the safety aspect - obviously some customers will care more about price than safety, but perhaps those aren't the sort of customers you want to work for anyway...

I give them an estimate of how long it will take, I tend to try and go on the longer side so no arguments.
 
Pretty sensible these days to just book out a Whole day for a complete board change

gone are the days of 3 board swaps on a Saturday when you could just stick everything on the non rcd side if you found one with a tripping issue :eek:
 
9.00 am. arrive on site.
9.30am. quick smoke and get tools off van.
10.00am. start stripping old CU.
12.00. break for 2 hour lunch at nearest pub.
14.30. screw CU on wall and start bunging in cables.
16.00. break for smoke and swig of JD.
17.00.bung lid on and throw main switch.
17.30. OK it works, pass go and collect £400.
18.00.park up at pub to spend some of the ill gotton gains.

you're right. a full day.
 
I change a domestic consumer unit perhaps once per month.
I do some simple tests on the pre works visit.. global IR, few pictures, check Main bonding. This means I have an idea if any extra work may be required which I mention in the quote.
When I am carrying out the actual CU change I do the dead tests after I have removed the existing CU and just have all the cables poking out of the wall (or into the shell of the new CU). It doesn't make any sense to terminate them all neatly and then take them out again for the dead tests. Live tests at the end when all is finished.
I don't think you need to carry out an EICR with every board change. Just a good pre works visit. On occasion I may suggest an EICR if the house looks like it needs it. This would then be cheaper than a normal EICR as some of the work is duplicated with CU change.
 
I change a domestic consumer unit perhaps once per month.
I do some simple tests on the pre works visit.. global IR, few pictures, check Main bonding. This means I have an idea if any extra work may be required which I mention in the quote.
When I am carrying out the actual CU change I do the dead tests after I have removed the existing CU and just have all the cables poking out of the wall (or into the shell of the new CU). It doesn't make any sense to terminate them all neatly and then take them out again for the dead tests. Live tests at the end when all is finished.
I don't think you need to carry out an EICR with every board change. Just a good pre works visit. On occasion I may suggest an EICR if the house looks like it needs it. This would then be cheaper than a normal EICR as some of the work is duplicated with CU change.
You do IR tests with all the cpcs isolated from each other and the earthing conductor? I test as I am connecting them.
 
Always insist on a full EICR before changing a board now. Always book a full day for the EICR and a day for a bird change. So your looking at a minimum of about £700 for me to change a 10 way board for a RCBO board with SPD.
 
Always insist on a full EICR before changing a board now. Always book a full day for the EICR and a day for a bird change. So your looking at a minimum of about £700 for me to change a 10 way board for a RCBO board with SPD.

thats pretty reasonable imo , not sure a Pre board swap eicr Would last me a full day thou. Reckon I could be done by lunch time
 
Always insist on a full EICR before changing a board now. Always book a full day for the EICR and a day for a bird change. So your looking at a minimum of about £700 for me to change a 10 way board for a RCBO board with SPD.

I need a bird change. Got any good models?
 
I change a domestic consumer unit perhaps once per month.
I do some simple tests on the pre works visit.. global IR, few pictures, check Main bonding. This means I have an idea if any extra work may be required which I mention in the quote.
When I am carrying out the actual CU change I do the dead tests after I have removed the existing CU and just have all the cables poking out of the wall (or into the shell of the new CU). It doesn't make any sense to terminate them all neatly and then take them out again for the dead tests. Live tests at the end when all is finished.
I don't think you need to carry out an EICR with every board change. Just a good pre works visit. On occasion I may suggest an EICR if the house looks like it needs it. This would then be cheaper than a normal EICR as some of the work is duplicated with CU change.

Likewise for me with testing before taking the old CU came off the wall; used to do that on another day, before changing the CU.

Don't think I would of much domestic work, charging for an EICR, then doing the CU change as an additional quotation.
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Neat & Tidy but no dead testing ...

There was no evidence of any testing. Haven't we seen this lot before?
 
Likewise for me with testing before taking the old CU came off the wall; used to do that on another day, before changing the CU.

Don't think I would of much domestic work, charging for an EICR, then doing the CU change as an additional quotation.
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There was no evidence of any testing. Haven't we seen this lot before?

yes , it’s the 1 day re-wire clan from Scotland
 
put your quote in For a simple board change and offer to knock 50% the eicr when you do the consumer unit and all remedial work...

if they opt not to do the board then you just invoice for the eicr and leave it at that
thoughts ?
Thinking, how can you invoice for an EICR if all you're doing is quoting for a CU change.....and they're not accepting?
 
You do IR tests with all the cpcs isolated from each other and the earthing conductor? I test as I am connecting them.
A very good point.

But hopefully he temporarily joined them up (and to incoming earth) for the IR test, even a temporary winding of thin wire round the lot will do as it is not needing the low ohm R2 style of measurement demanding good connections.
 
2 seperate job
Maybe...if you quote for an EICR
but you're only quoting for a CU change....unless agreed, they wont (and shouldn't) pay for a prior test unless they ask for one.
If you include the test in the quote and it's accepted, you've got the job anyway, all in.
 
I cost in a morning or afternoon, a week or so before the board change, to do pre-board change inspection and test: earthing, bonding, IR, ring continuity, check for borrowed neutrals, and either R1+R2 or Zs on every circuit. When I give my quote, I explain (in writing) that the quote is subject to the existing circuits meeting the minimum requirements of the Regs; if it's something I can quickly and easily fix during the pre-change checks I'm happy to do so. If there is plenty wrong, then I reschedule the board change for further into the future, and spend the day I booked for the board change doing fault-finding and rectification (either as a quote, but usually on an hourly rate). This has happened about 2 or 3 times, out of about 30 board changes, and the client has always been grateful for sorting things out and doing stuff properly.

In theory, if I do the checks and there's a lot to sort out which the client doesn't want to pay for, the client can cancel the board change and doesn't owe me anything. This has never happened though.

I don't like surprises. When I strip out an old board, I want to make sure, as best I can, that the day will go smoothly. :)
 
I cost in a morning or afternoon, a week or so before the board change, to do pre-board change inspection and test: earthing, bonding, IR, ring continuity, check for borrowed neutrals, and either R1+R2 or Zs on every circuit. When I give my quote, I explain (in writing) that the quote is subject to the existing circuits meeting the minimum requirements of the Regs; if it's something I can quickly and easily fix during the pre-change checks I'm happy to do so. If there is plenty wrong, then I reschedule the board change for further into the future, and spend the day I booked for the board change doing fault-finding and rectification (either as a quote, but usually on an hourly rate). This has happened about 2 or 3 times, out of about 30 board changes, and the client has always been grateful for sorting things out and doing stuff properly.

In theory, if I do the checks and there's a lot to sort out which the client doesn't want to pay for, the client can cancel the board change and doesn't owe me anything. This has never happened though.

I don't like surprises. When I strip out an old board, I want to make sure, as best I can, that the day will go smoothly. :)
Spot on in my opinion that’s what I do. I don’t charge full whack to do an EICR and then say you need your consumer unit changed and then charge for that. In some cases you already know after visually inspecting property and board cover off that it needs upgrading. So I would do a small fee for pre inspection of property and then set an amount of £350 approximate based on standard property with 6/7 circuits for board change. I will inform customer that should I find any faults after board change I will charge per hour for fault finding. I don’t like the fact that ppl charge £150/£300 for EICR then charge another £350 for board change when you already know that the property needs upgrading prior to EICR
 
You do IR tests with all the cpcs isolated from each other and the earthing conductor? I test as I am connecting them.
Yes, you're right Westward, I had to think for a moment. The back of the new board would be up, with all the cables coming into the new unit. Then, I would do individual IR tests just before I connect up the earths to the earth bar.
 
Agree
People who do mains changes with impact drivers need there hands chopping off

done lot of work on social housing and number of times I go in and try to torque tighten all existing terminals but only to find been install by some tool with a impact and all screws rounded off
My number 1 thing that grinds my gears!
Yesssss!!! Same here I’m testing a lot and the amount of terminals which are rounded, tightened by Arnold Schwarzenegger is unbelievable even the fuse board covers grips my ---- use your hand tools so you can feel the tension simple
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Yesssss!!! Same here I’m testing a lot and the amount of terminals which are rounded, tightened by Arnold Schwarzenegger is unbelievable even the fuse board covers grips my ---- use your hand tools so you can feel the tension simple
Another pet hate is the earths twisted together in single sleeving why like? Sleeve them individually easy solution is to do end to end at socket but I like the fuse board lol
 
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Yes, you're right Westward, I had to think for a moment. The back of the new board would be up, with all the cables coming into the new unit. Then, I would do individual IR tests just before I connect up the earths to the earth bar.
You should connect the cpcs first.
 
If people are using 18v impact drivers to tighten down terminal screws something went wrong with the trade...
Exactly I’m normally a calm guy but some of the boards I’ve had to test recently really wind me up. And I never had a problem 7 years ago it’s only the recently installed boards which seem to be glued shut
 
I don't approve of his method but to be fair he seemed well in control of the driver and didn't seem to over do the terminals.
 
I don't approve of his method but to be fair he seemed well in control of the driver and didn't seem to over do the terminals.
I suppose if you have an understanding of power tools then it’s fine one of my best mates does it with impact and I cringe every time I see/hear him at the consumer but to be fair he understands the torque it’s the ones who don’t have knowledge/experience that cause the problems anyhow I don’t like power tools at consumer
 
i run them down with a cheap 4V battery driver with torque settings, then hand tighten to correct tightness.
 
I suppose if you have an understanding of power tools then it’s fine one of my best mates does it with impact and I cringe every time I see/hear him at the consumer but to be fair he understands the torque it’s the ones who don’t have knowledge/experience that cause the problems anyhow I don’t like power tools at consumer

The drill/driver is used in that video is not an impact driver and can be set to exceptionally low torques. I've no idea what it was set at and whether or not those terminals were over/under tightened, but it's worth noting that they are very different tools.
 
The drill/driver is used in that video is not an impact driver and can be set to exceptionally low torques. I've no idea what it was set at and whether or not those terminals were over/under tightened, but it's worth noting that they are very different tools.
Doesn’t matter shudn be using them unless like @telectrix just posted then that’s the exception “HAND TOOLS ONLY”
 
Doesn’t matter shudn be using them unless like @telectrix just posted then that’s the exception “HAND TOOLS ONLY”

Drill drivers can be set to exceptionally low torques - often so low that it wouldn't be considered much more than hand tight.

Having said that, I just looked at the video again and note that it is indeed an impact driver :tearsofjoy:
 
The drill/driver is used in that video is not an impact driver and can be set to exceptionally low torques. I've no idea what it was set at and whether or not those terminals were over/under tightened, but it's worth noting that they are very different tools.
What
The drill/driver is used in that video is not an impact driver and can be set to exceptionally low torques. I've no idea what it was set at and whether or not those terminals were over/under tightened, but it's worth noting that they are very different tools.
what do you use mate? Drill/driver is it?
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Drill drivers can be set to exceptionally low torques - often so low that it wouldn't be considered much more than hand tight.

Having said that, I just looked at the video again and note that it is indeed an impact driver :tearsofjoy:
??
 
If people are using 18v impact drivers to tighten down terminal screws something went wrong with the trade...
I'll be honest if I've got a board full I'll wizz all the terminals fully open with the driver and tighten them back up just tight enough to hold then run down the lot with the torque driver.

If you use an impact enough then you can be quite gentle with it.

Never rounded a screw yet
 
I'll be honest if I've got a board full I'll wizz all the terminals fully open with the driver and tighten them back up just tight enough to hold then run down the lot with the torque driver.

If you use an impact enough then you can be quite gentle with it.

Never rounded a screw yet
Ok so you’re under the category of experienced but I’m sure you agree with the fact that it’s more sensible to hand tighten terminations so you can feel the tension
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I don't regularly fit consumer units - in fact I've fitted a grand total of one and the use of power tools was limited to mounting it.
Good man stick to the hand tools once mounted ?
 
Ok so you’re under the category of experienced but I’m sure you agree with the fact that it’s more sensible to hand tighten terminations so you can feel the tension
There's a time and a place, if its an obsolete MCCB it'll be hand tools only, if its a board change and mistakes can rectified the returns outweigh the risk.

What does grind my gears is certain manufacturers applying thread lock to terminal screws, not sure how that helps come EICR time.
 
I don't know how these manufacturers calibrate their torque screwdrivers, but mine was so far out it could not be tightened to 2.1N required by Hager without bending the Din rail the RCBO was fixed too, anyone want to buy a full set of Armeg drivers?
 

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