UK cable 1mm coloured red blue yellow -- what is it?

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Discuss UK cable 1mm coloured red blue yellow -- what is it? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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WilcoxElec

When replacing a lighting circuit which had been done with UK type materials in a renovation here in France I came across (and ripped out) lengths of a type of cable I have not seen before. It looked like gray twin and earth, but thinner, and had 3 separately insulated conductors of 1mm section (I think – - but I was in a hurry to get it out) The colours of the insulation on the conductors were blue red and solid yellow ....... I just wanted to ask what it was, what should it have been used for – given that it should not have been used for wiring lights in the wrong way in France ! (we don't chain the lights here - to avoid having an "always live" wire in the "DCL" ) ...I ask only because having worked in industry in the UK I get asked about the bits of DIY wiring using stuff brought over from the UK .... despite not having had much to do with UK domestic electrics (which – incidently – other than using to make a cup of tea for a UK sparky I would not touch as a professional! ).



So, anyone tell me what this red/blue/yellow stuff was?, I don't think there was also an unsheilded earth conductor as well, because otherwise I would have guessed it was a version of "4G" .. Just wondered :D
 
trev said:
It's a length of 3core and earthin the old colours pre harmonisation. Most probably used in 2 way light switching in your property
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No earth in cable according to OP.

To Wil, My mother has friends with a house/farm type place in Brittany, is it right that the French don't allow use of Twin & Earth cable?
 
Archy Styrigg said:
No earth in cable according to OP.

To Wil, My mother has friends with a house/farm type place in Brittany, is it right that the French don't allow use of Twin & Earth cable?
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The earth conductor must have the same diameter as the other conductors and be separately insulated yellow/green - so no , twin and earth should not be used and does not conform to the NFC 15-100 wiring regs. I have ripped out miles of it in rewiring to French standards! We use the U-1000 type industrial cable usually, especially in the countryside :D
 
I don't think it had an earth, I have seen something similar with an earth used for a two way switch, this was used in a lighting chain, the yellow was used as earth - and not often connected! Thanks :D
 
OH, I see, thankyou, I only ever saw brown, grey black -- even in the UK :/ although I have seen loads of red and black twin an earth.
 
Is it like this?? I would say they have used it and removed the unsheathed earth. That way, they can use the yellow as the earth and it complies with your reg by using the same sized conductor for an earth.
$(KGrHqR,!nwE9emDpB(cBPi(IVMCh!~~60_1.JPG
 
I shall have a look in the recycle bin to see, but I am fairly sure there was no earth. ---- Actually I only posted this because I felt I should post something new :D -- thanks for your help anyway ...... :D -- as I said - I shll see if I can find a bit :D
 
was going to say, what's the use of 2 volumes nobody can understand.
 
I need to get back to the paperwork ! Thnkyou all... I can now tell French Sparkies that some old UK cable has blue red and yellow insulated conductors .... and sometimes an uninsulated earth as well! I wish there was a way of preventing it being used by Brits doing DIY in France, although this is not usually the principal concern in these cases ....
 
could it by any chance be the 3 core red/blue/white of the 70s which had no cpc(earth),maybe the white has discoloured a bit.clutching at straws but that most definetly had no earth.
 
Ha! That's just what I was going to say. Get the red white and blue stuff here loads.

So how's the wiring regs huge and 2 volumes? It's bad enough huge and 1 volume. There's no chance the general public will bother with any of that is there?
 
Steve_P said:
Ha! That's just what I was going to say. Get the red white and blue stuff here loads.

So how's the wiring regs huge and 2 volumes? It's bad enough huge and 1 volume. There's no chance the general public will bother with any of that is there?
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There are condensed guides produced by a professional association which are useful working guides - which are from PROMOTELEC - " Norme installation électrique, certification électricité, label hpe Promotelec pour une meilleure sécurité " -- I was given a copy of their red booklet the day I started my training for French domestic , these are frequently updated ---- as are the Normes NFC 15-100 and NFC 14-100 ... The equivalent of your City and Guilds here - The Chambre de Metiers provides subsidies to keep registered artisans trained up as the rules change ---- I need to go and catch up in a couple of weeks (it will probably be mostly about changes to telephone/digital and TBT.
 
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robsparky1975 said:
could it by any chance be the 3 core red/blue/white of the 70s which had no cpc(earth),maybe the white has discoloured a bit.clutching at straws but that most definetly had no earth.
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No, definitely solid yellow - that is what attracted attention, we use loads of different colours for live and returns in France when wires are put in ICA/ICTA tubing in the structure of buildings (the multicoured runs can look quite pretty) , but yellow is not one of them, we can use white so long as we call it Ivoire (Ivory coloured) - and older electriciens like to use lots of that for old times sake... (white and blue is like your red and black to the old hands :D ).
 
WilcoxElec said:
No, definitely solid yellow - that is what attracted attention, we use loads of different colours for live and returns in France when wires are put in ICA/ICTA tubing in the structure of buildings (the multicoured runs can look quite pretty) , but yellow is not one of them, we can use white so long as we call it Ivoire (Ivory coloured) - and older electriciens like to use lots of that for old times sake... (white and blue is like your red and black to the old hands :D ).
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So much for the European cable/wire colour harmonization then ...lol!!!
 
Engineer54 said:
So much for the European cable/wire colour harmonization then ...lol!!!
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what harmonization? it's only the UK that abides by stupid european rules. i say get out of the EU, flood the tunnel,
raise the drawbridge.
 
How they came up with Brown/Black/Grey boggles the mind

In my opinion Red/Yellow/Blue would be the choice of Electricians actually tasked with using these strange,unsuitable shades of gods knows what they have lumbered the industry with
What numpties I wonder chose Grey has a phase colour ?:90:
 
Des 56 said:
How they came up with Brown/Black/Grey boggles the mind

In my opinion Red/Yellow/Blue would be the choice of Electricians actually tasked with using these strange,unsuitable shades of gods knows what they have lumbered the industry with
What numpties I wonder chose Grey has a phase colour ?:90:
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Agree, ....at least you could easily distinguish between the old phase colours in bad/low lighting conditions, that's now neigh on impossible!! lol!!
 
Thanks for the offer Victor.
My French is virtually non existent, but, I assume it's a virtual copy, please send.
I might be going over soon so I can take it with me.
The locals do some lovel cider where this house is. :)
 
Engineer54 said:



​


So what's this all about then?? Where's the harmonisation here?? ...lol!!
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Cables cannot be buried into the structure of buildings - so ICT/ICTA tubing is used with runs of single conductors (H07) for the circuits. 2.5mm section for sockets 1.5 for lighting 6mm for cookers and hot plates and so on. For a new-build the tubing is prewired at a workshop and so you get junction boxes to go into the loft space with a number of ICTA tubes running off which are run down inside the walls - which we call an octopus (pieuvre) .... Hopefully the wires are all well labelled - but when you are making up runs yourself - if you have various coulours you can make life easier and faster. Most use violet and orange pairs for the wires which run between the two poles of two two way switches say, and black and brown for the returns from switches to lights or from push buttons to telerupteurs or whatever.... leaving red and blue to be used as the supply live and neutral.
 
Harmonization!!!!!! don't be silly, this is France, they do what they want when they want, not even Mme Merkel can tell them what to do
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I know!! lol!! I was on the Saudi MOH regional GH150/200 bed hospital project where the main contractor for several of these remote hospitals were French!!

All i can say is that they had to pull out an awful lot of initial wiring very early on in the project. They completely disregarded the contract specifications and wired to what THEY considered was correct. They didn't even follow their own submitted and subsequently approved for construction drawings ...lol!!

They did learn very quickly though, ...that they weren't going to get away with the usual French contract intimidation, that they always seem to try on at the start of projects. It cost them a good few bob getting it done right and almost cost them late stage penalty charges... lol!!
 
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WilcoxElec said:
Cables cannot be buried into the structure of buildings - so ICT/ICTA tubing is used with runs of single conductors (H07) for the circuits. 2.5mm section for sockets 1.5 for lighting 6mm for cookers and hot plates and so on. For a new-build the tubing is prewired at a workshop and so you get junction boxes to go into the loft space with a number of ICTA tubes running off which are run down inside the walls - which we call an octopus (pieuvre) .... Hopefully the wires are all well labelled - but when you are making up runs yourself - if you have various coulours you can make life easier and faster. Most use violet and orange pairs for the wires which run between the two poles of two two way switches say, and black and brown for the returns from switches to lights or from push buttons to telerupteurs or whatever.... leaving red and blue to be used as the supply live and neutral.
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Sorry, but that is NOT under any stretch of the imagination, a harmonized cable/wire colour identification system. On a building wiring installation, the recognised colour coding should be utilised throughout, not left to workshop personnel or the on-site electrician to decide what colours to use for what!!

Your ''Octopus'' wiring system for domestic installations came and went in the 70's in the UK!! lol!! I do like and approve of your push button operated pulse relay lighting systems. Trouble is that to incorporate in the UK, would mean substantially larger and adaptable CU/DB's that in many domestic instances, would prove difficult to accommodate...
 
Engineer54 said:
recognised colour coding should be utilised throughout, not left to workshop personnel or the on-site electrician to decide what colours to use for what!! ..
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Quite right! But it is what I learnt --- choice of colours depends on what spools got loaded into the van...... - within the constraints of what is permitted... actually spools of colours other than red blue green/yellow -- I have noticed -- are often a few centimes cheaper - .......100_2072.jpg
 
WilcoxElec said:
Quite right! But it is what I learnt --- choice of colours depends on what spools got loaded into the van...... - within the constraints of what is permitted... actually spools of colours other than red blue green/yellow -- I have noticed -- are often a few centimes cheaper - .......View attachment 12838
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I hate to say this, but this phote does not meet French regs as there is only one Interrupteur Differential (RCD). I have just been picked up on a Consuel inspection for only having 3 on a house of over 100sqm. The inspector said that there should be 4, even though it was a 3 phase installation.

Totally over the top if you ask me.
 
Anyone fancy a CU/DB approaching this sort of size in their house?? lol!!!

Just trying to work out why you would need two socket outlets mounted in the DB?? lol!!
 
Victor said:
I hate to say this, but this phote does not meet French regs as there is only one Interrupteur Differential (RCD). I have just been picked up on a Consuel inspection for only having 3 on a house of over 100sqm. The inspector said that there should be 4, even though it was a 3 phase installation.

Totally over the top if you ask me.
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You are not wrong --- however this was a rewiring of an installation - so not subject to a Consuel inspection ---- It is three phase too.. If it was single phase - and an inspection were required - then for a property this size - at least three RCDs would have been required. -- two type AC and a type A, - this board could be made to conform by adding a single type A and moving the washing machine - and perhaps a few other circuits behind it ---- but ----- as you say - a bit over the top :D as I am sure the Consuel would agree - as he picked up on it :D --- regs are regs :D ça fait marche le commerce, comme ils disent !
 
Engineer54 said:
Anyone fancy a CU/DB approaching this sort of size in their house?? lol!!!

Just trying to work out why you would need two socket outlets mounted in the DB?? lol!!
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This is actually a requirement - or accepted practice at least -- very useful too.....The size of this board is because of the number of "panneaux rayonnants" used as heating - each needs its own protection MCB - (often done in a separate unit) -- here the best way was to balance - as best we could - on three separate rows. The property is a renovated old farm building deep in the countryside - and the board is in a utility space -- but I can see the point you are making ---- Even for a new build a French "Tableau" is likely to be bigger than a CU -- and likely to be in the garage rather than under the stairs :D - (so it doesn't need a sticker telling - not to put the ironing board heaps of other stuff in front of it. :D LOL) I might have 'photos of really old stuff that was there before the rewire, but they might be used to suggest that French electrics are mostly like that!
 
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WilcoxElec said:
This is actually a requirement - or accepted practice at least -- very useful too.....The size of this board is because of the number of "panneaux rayonnants" used as heating - each needs its own protection MCB - (often done in a separate unit) -- here the best way was to balance - as best we could - on three separate rows. The property is a renovated old farm building deep in the countryside - and the board is in a utility space -- but I can see the point you are making ---- Even for a new build a French "Tableau" is likely to be bigger than a CU -- and likely to be in the garage rather than under the stairs :D - (so it doesn't need a sticker telling - not to put the ironing board heaps of other stuff in front of it. :D LOL) I might have 'photos of really old stuff that was there before the rewire, but they might be used to suggest that French electrics are mostly like that!
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Wouldn't be any worse than some of the very old UK installs before the advent of central CU's/DB's!! lol!!

Literary every circuit had it's own rewireable switch fuse, so could look a real mess over time, as more and more circuit provisions was added!! lol!! So no problem posting your photo's, ...it'll be interesting to see them..lol!!
 
Engineer54 said:
Anyone fancy a CU/DB approaching this sort of size in their house?? lol!!!

Just trying to work out why you would need two socket outlets mounted in the DB?? lol!!
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Look on the bright side,if they were all monstrosities like the photo,then the part p ers could forget their worries about what hight to fit them
 
Des 56 said:
Look on the bright side,if they were all monstrosities like the photo,then the part p ers could forget their worries about what hight to fit them
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I expected this kind of snide observation when I posted the 'photo ---- yea -- foreign stuff - monstrosity -- snort chortle chortle ...... .. and - do you not actually know what height you need to put your CUs...... Perhaps you should reflect on the fact that the profit margin and satisfaction in meeting the regulations and customer expectations with such arrrangements is greater than that in trying to work out what height to place some cheap but adaquate CU....:angry_smile:
 
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