Ring r1 issue.

Post new thread

Discuss Ring r1 issue. in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

I

Iona222

Trainee
Reaction score
41
I've volunteer to do some fault finding tomorrow on ring circuit. r1 no continuity.

I'm going to use the long lead method. Try work out if the r1 is broken, if it broken I need to blank off the socket and turn it into 2 radials. I need to buy 2 x 20amp breakers. Anything else I should look for, or any advice. Cheers.
 
The two 20A radials is always an option, but if the location of the break is such that the two legs are radically different lengths, I would perhaps be focusing on fixing the problem, particularly if the circuit serves a high usage location like a kitchen.

In terms of blanking off... I would try not to remove any accessories from service... if the break is on a cable leg from one place to another, just get yourself some slim 4 way push fit Wagos and earth out the cables for that section at both ends.

In my experience, such issues have typically been caused by loose connections in the accessories themselves. Thankfully I've not had many that involved hidden junction boxes... but one of them sticks in my mind where I managed to get the location down to the wall behind a newly installed kitchen cupboard :)

If you don't fancy dragging the long lead around you could also just link our line and neutral on one end of the cable and then go around taking an R1+R2 reading until it goes to the dogs... then do the same but with the other leg linked out. Draw a diagram and record the results... can help working out potential cable routes and may also highlight whether you are looking for multiple issues.

Good luck :)
 
SparkyChick said:
The two 20A radials is always an option, but if the location of the break is such that the two legs are radically different lengths, I would perhaps be focusing on fixing the problem, particularly if the circuit serves a high usage location like a kitchen.

In terms of blanking off... I would try not to remove any accessories from service... if the break is on a cable leg from one place to another, just get yourself some slim 4 way push fit Wagos and earth out the cables for that section at both ends.

In my experience, such issues have typically been caused by loose connections in the accessories themselves. Thankfully I've not had many that involved hidden junction boxes... but one of them sticks in my mind where I managed to get the location down to the wall behind a newly installed kitchen cupboard :)

If you don't fancy dragging the long lead around you could also just link our line and neutral on one end of the cable and then go around taking an R1+R2 reading until it goes to the dogs... then do the same but with the other leg linked out. Draw a diagram and record the results... can help working out potential cable routes and may also highlight whether you are looking for multiple issues.

Good luck :)
Click to expand...
I try this thanks for the reply.
 
Very good advice above. The advantage of linking out one end and testing, then the other end and testing is you also find the rough route of the wiring as you go without having to dismantle dismantling lots of things.
Usually the problem is between the two highest readings in each direction. A spur can confuse things though, so if you find one of them is a spur ignore that socket completely as if it isn't there.

Before you start I'd check end-to-end rn and r2 for yourself and check these values look sane.
(If you have a break or poor connection in r2 at a different point then it can royally confuse things!)

All the best with it. It's very satisfying when you find and fix one of these!
 
brianmoooore said:
Disconnect one live for the RFC at the consumer. Put the cover on and switch back on, the go around the property with a Voltstick, or even a table lamp, until you find where it ceases to work.
Should give you a good idea of where to start looking for the actual break.
Click to expand...

Have used that method as well :)
 
brianmoooore said:
Disconnect one live for the RFC at the consumer. Put the cover on and switch back on, the go around the property with a Voltstick, or even a table lamp, until you find where it ceases to work.
Should give you a good idea of where to start looking for the actual break.
Click to expand...
Just make sure the disconnected end is made safe…..

last thing you need is a floating wire suddenly going live
 
brianmoooore said:
Disconnect one live for the RFC at the consumer. Put the cover on and switch back on, the go around the property with a Voltstick, or even a table lamp, until you find where it ceases to work.
Should give you a good idea of where to start looking for the actual break.
Click to expand...
Would half the circuit not be working anyway? With half ring disconnected?
 
By connecting each end in turn it can help find the break:
1626723469899.png
 
Last edited:
timhoward said:
If you connected two radial circuits to the same MCB (forget the regs a minute) would they both work?
Click to expand...
OK mate, im going in tomorrow, disconnected one side of the ring, im going round. Will the whole ring be enigeresed if there's no fault. If there's a fault some of the ring won't work.
 
Iona222 said:
OK mate, im going in tomorrow, disconnected one side of the ring, im going round. Will the whole ring be enigeresed if there's no fault. If there's a fault some of the ring won't work.
Click to expand...
You were too quick for me, I tried to edit that comment as I realised I'd missed your point.
See diagrams I replaced the comment with. I think you get it now.
Basically some will work depending on which end you connect. The important thing is not to leave the other end loose in the consumer unit, stick a wago on it.
 
Iona222 said:
OK mate, im going in tomorrow, disconnected one side of the ring, im going round. Will the whole ring be enigeresed if there's no fault. If there's a fault some of the ring won't work.
Click to expand...
It'll still be live with a broken leg because it's still fed from both sides. Just break it into smaller sections and carry out your dead tests. Once you have confirmed what it is, if you can repair it or replace damaged leg all well. If not last resort is 2 radials.
 
It isn't necessarily strange as the break maybe between the board and first socket. Making one leg of the circuit live to find this fault is poor advice, the best advice is dead continuity tests as previously stated. The circuit may only have a high resistance joint and not a clean break hence the method you tried indicated they are all live, you are a trainee and this was inappropriate advice. A continuity tester may well show open circuit which may mean clean break or a high resistance connection which is above the range your tester it set to. Try an insulation resistance test across the two ends and see if it is clearly open. Either way you need to do cold continuity tests to find the fault.
 
westward10 said:
It isn't necessarily strange as the break maybe between the board and first socket. Making one leg of the circuit live to find this fault is poor advice, the best advice is dead continuity tests as previously stated. The circuit may only have a high resistance joint and not a clean break hence the method you tried indicated they are all live, you are a trainee and this was inappropriate advice. A continuity tester may well show open circuit which may mean clean break or a high resistance connection which is above the range your tester it set to. Try an insulation resistance test across the two ends and see if it is clearly open. Either way you need to do cold continuity tests to find the fault.
Click to expand...
I've linked r1 and rn at the board. I'm get around 0.65 at every socket, except one, it's high 1.2 it a spur.
 
Iona222 said:
I've linked r1 and rn at the board. I'm get around 0.65 at every socket, except one, it's high 1.2 it a spur.
Click to expand...
Is this the figure-of-eight test?

If it look like there is no longer a break in the ring then either it was due to moving the connections at the MCB end (but I would expect you would have noticed a poor clamp, or it gripping the insulation and not wire), or somehow testing with 230V on one leg but not the other has blown away some thin corrosion somewhere and contact is made once more.

That is actually the worst possible outcome as the fault is still present, just no longer showing up on test :(
 
This is the problem with testing "by the book". The mot important thing when dealing with what may be an intermittent fault is to disturb absolutely NOTHING more than you can help, before you have a good indication of where the fault may be located.
Disconnecting one leg at the MCB and then going around the property with a Voltstick would have disturbed nothing more than the readily accessible and observable at the MCB.
 
Give the test leads a good squeeze and make sure it's really 5 ohms.
My suspicion is that the loose connection is one you have already touched.
I also suspect you may have linked r1 and rn on opposite legs earlier.

Don't do any more live tests until the dead tests make sense.
 
Iona222 said:
I've changed a couple of circuits and I'm getting 5.01 ohms on r1. Least I'm getting continuity.

I'm getting 0.55 on rn. 4.5 on r1. I.r. Live to live 500M
Click to expand...
At least it is still present to be found.

Try linking L & N at one end (L & N open on other leg) and go round checking low ohm resistance L-N at each socket, it should be low-ish (0-1 ohm or so) on that side until you get to around the fault and then probably 4 ohm is added.

Then do the opposite (link L-N other leg, open first leg) and see if you find the fault at the same socket.
 
pc1966 said:
Then do the opposite (link L-N other leg, open first leg) and see if you find the fault at the same socket.
Click to expand...
Just to correct that, you probably will find two sockets where there is a change when checked from both direction. Assuming just the one fault (hmm, yes...) then it will be the link between them that has the high R problem.

If lucky and there is no stupid hidden junction box then probably one of those sockets will be found to have a poor connection / loose screw and correcting that ought to result in r1 & rn being practically identical.
 
pc1966 said:
Just to correct that, you probably will find two sockets where there is a change when checked from both direction. Assuming just the one fault (hmm, yes...) then it will be the link between them that has the high R problem.

If lucky and there is no stupid hidden junction box then probably one of those sockets will be found to have a poor connection / loose screw and correcting that ought to result in r1 & rn being practically identical.
Click to expand...
Gave up on it, whet round all the sockets. There's a loft but no access. High, fluctuating r1 reading. Least I got it improved from no continuity. My friend just bought the house was good experience like, but wish I was successful on resolving the issue.
 
Open circuit is relatively safe. An open circuit passes no current, so develops no heat.
A resistive joint, like you have now, produces heat in watts to the product of the current flowing through it and the resistance of the fault.
Much more dangerous than it was.
 
Iona222 said:
I've followed all the advise, he needs to get someone with more experience. If you fancy a drive to Glasgow?.. I didn't get access to the loft to check for cables damaged or so. I could change the rest of the sockets I didn't change. Or than that.
Click to expand...
Don't give up on the fault. If you can't fault find you'll never be a good spark and many out there can't. Persevere and it'll be worth it there's nothing like hands on experience to learn. I've been there and it's ---- having to do it yourself at the start but you'll be glad you did.
 
Matthewd29 said:
Don't give up on the fault. If you can't fault find you'll never be a good spark and many out there can't. Persevere and it'll be worth it there's nothing like hands on experience to learn. I've been there and it's ---- having to do it yourself at the start but you'll be glad you did.
Click to expand...

^This.

Numerous experiences of sparks who walked away, when things weren't straightforward enough for their liking, left me with a very poor impression of the trade for many years. It's also what has driven me to retrain.
 
I recall some good advice I was given by an irritatingly good elderly sparks - "if you can find the issue, find something that does work, no matter how simple, and build on it.".
In this case just proving that r1+r2 to the first socket on each leg (with the end linked) is a sensible number would be a fantastic start and boost your morale as you then know you will find the problem in the end. Even if it means testing each length of cable individually! It isn't the most efficient way but if it works, who cares!
 
Iona222 said:
I've followed all the advise, he needs to get someone with more experience. If you fancy a drive to Glasgow?.. I didn't get access to the loft to check for cables damaged or so. I could change the rest of the sockets I didn't change. Or than that.
Click to expand...
Take a short break and then go back. you will never gain the skills you need if you don't keep trying!

Taking a systematic and logical approach is essential or you will be chasing your own imagined tail. You might have more than one fault, you might have a fault in a hidden junction box, but if you apply some of the suggested tests you should be able to pin down the two sockets where there is an unacceptably high r1 between them.

At that point you have a couple of courses of action.

You can double-check that the two socket connections are fine, at which point you know there is a "cable" fault. It might be the hidden fault is feeding a spur, so if you isolate both good ends (so sockets 1...A are all good one one leg, and C...N are good on the other leg, but B is now open - its a spur off a junction box).

The locations of them might give you a clue as to what is up.

Maybe the junction feeds something you have not found (e.g. aerial amplifier in loft?)

If you find both isolated legs are moderately similar numbers of sockets and no other problems then you might call it quits and put them on two 20A MCB/RCBOs as radials and be done (after checking the Zs values...)

Imagine the RFC, now think of a section as bad and think "How can I find it by measurement along?"
 
Matthewd29 said:
Don't give up on the fault. If you can't fault find you'll never be a good spark and many out there can't. Persevere and it'll be worth it there's nothing like hands on experience to learn. I've been there and it's ---- having to do it yourself at the start but you'll be glad you did.
Click to expand...
I agree with all that mate. Im not going back the tenant was hassling me all day. Secondly other than get a key to check the loft what else can I do, I took off a sockets changed 4, followed the advise on this I.r test was 500M life to live. Im moving on. Thanks for all the advise.
 
The characteristics of the fault seem to have changed since you started investigating it, so it's your baby now. You can't just walk away knowing the installation is potentially dangerous.
Tenant doesn't get any say in the matter. I'm sure the tenancy agreement covers access for essential maintenance.
 
brianmoooore said:
The characteristics of the fault seem to have changed since you started investigating it, so it's your baby now. You can't just walk away knowing the installation is potentially dangerous.
Tenant doesn't get any say in the matter. I'm sure the tenancy agreement covers access for essential maintenance.
Click to expand...
Yip has changed. Im a trainee, I don't have the knowledge to resolve the issue, I could spend days there. The matters closed.
 
Iona222 said:
I agree with all that mate. Im not going back the tenant was hassling me all day. Secondly other than get a key to check the loft what else can I do, I took off a sockets changed 4, followed the advise on this I.r test was 500M life to live. Im moving on. Thanks for all the advise.
Click to expand...
Maybe not the best place to learn. Nothing worse than someone breathing down your neck
 
Dont give up.. Try this...

Go back to basics, you know rn and r2 are good right?

So disconnect all conductors and seperate at the CU... Then remove all sockets (Every single one) and disconnect and seperate all conductors.

Now go back to the consumer unit, choose one of the two legs, connect rn and r2 together, now go round each socket with a continuity tester testing each cable between neutral and cpc.

When you get continuity you know thats your first socket (Continue to check all sockets incase of hidden JB's) so it goes from the cu to that socket, now at the cu connect r1 and r2, go back to that socket and test continuity between live and cpc, if you have continuity the connect that cable to another cable in that socket, (If there are only two cables then you can put that socket back on).

Go back to the cu and change back to connected rn and r2, now follow same as above and go find your second socket, if there are more than two cables you will either find a spur in which case go back to your first socket and connect your known good cable to the other cable, or you will find the next socket in the ring. when you have found the next socket again go back to cu and connect r1 and r2 and check at second socket...

Eventually you will find where the break is between two sockets, Once you have found the issue you can next think about how best to fix it. Its not quick but at least you will find it..

Remember you dont know where the cables are run so trying to do things by the book such as splitting the ring in half does not always work. Keep it simple by disconnecting it all at the CU and thinking of it as a radial.

Hope the above made sense and helps. Good luck..
 
catdog1121 said:
Go back to basics,
Click to expand...
Good point. And what are the "basics"? When investigating any fault, anywhere, sparks first take the simplist, most convenient and practical approach. Disconnecting as little as possible and without taking a tester of any discription out of the toolbox we determine...
1) what's working(a volts tick to indicate, a socket tester to confirm)
2) what is, nt working.
3) At first socket not working you disconnect and work back to what is working.
The above steps will sort 90% of these "bread and butter" faults.
It's invariably a fault at an accessory.
If the above steps don't locate the fault it's at that point I grab my tester as it's now an issue with the fixed wiring
 
New posts

Reply to Ring r1 issue. in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Similar Threads

A
Fault on Ring final circuit
Please advise what I should test / check next. My usual qualified electrician who did all of the work here is in Ireland for 4 weeks and not...
Replies
45
Views
3K
AJB Temple
A
S
Ring door bell wite connected issue
Hope you're all well . I've had ring door bell 2nd generation hardwired for 1.5 yrs... it was connected to transformer which is connected to the...
Replies
22
Views
1K
Avo Mk8
Avo Mk8
CopiamElectrical
Ring circuit fault, High RN
Hey there, Sorry I’ve just joined up. I’m a qualified electrician/Electrical engineer. Recently sat my 2391-52. My question is I had a fault...
Replies
4
Views
1K
CopiamElectrical
CopiamElectrical
A
external socket on ring or radial
i have just started my course as a trainee electrician...some advice on the following will be appreciated: I have a spare 16 and 32A MCB (RCD...
Replies
5
Views
313
westward10
westward10
Simthespark
3 lead low Err5 code Fluke 1664FC
Hi All New to this forum, have read the posts on here from google but only recently signed up. I'm having some issues and some input would be...
Replies
13
Views
2K
timhoward
timhoward

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

Tags

advice aus cable circuit course earth electric electrical electrician hello led light lighting lights looking new please question rcd socket supply switch testing training wiring
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top