Bathroom zoning question

[Pauldicker]

Guys
Quick question regarding moving my bathroom pull cord to a switch.
I was measuring my bathroom zones as per 7671, and I would like to put a light switch 0.73m outside of zone 2, the problem is I could not see anything relating to a light switch in particular only a socket, And pull cord switches.
All the circuits are RCD protected.

 

[telectrix]

whilst it is good practice to fit a wall switch outside the bathroom,that far outside zone 2 might be acceptable.

 

[Pauldicker]

whilst it is good practice to fit a wall switch outside the bathroom,that far outside zone 2 might be acceptable.

Thanks, the main reason I did not want to fit outside the bathroom is I have two cheeky girls who would find it fun to turn off the light while someone is in there, and I would chuckle when the wife is in there.

 

[Andy78]

Thanks, the main reason I did not want to fit on outside is I have two check girls who would find it fun to turn off the light while someone is in there, and I would chuckle when the wife is in there.

That sounds reason enough to put it outside to me, you know, for a laugh.
Did you mean Czech girls or cheeky girls ? If you meant cheeky girls do you mean the cheeky girls ? and were the cheeky girls Czech ?

 

[westward10]

How high from the floor will it be.

 

[Pat H]

A plate switch is allowed outside the zones of a bathroom. A switch should be at least 0.6 m from the edge of the bath or shower (outside the zones) and must be suitable for the location. The cords of cord-operated switches are allowed in zones 1 and 2 and are recommended for bathrooms and shower rooms to account for the humidity and condensation that could occur.

So as long as its an appropriate Bathroom IP rated (IPX4) plate switch it can be just outside Zone 2 so 730mm is 130mm safely outside zone 2

 

[Pauldicker]

How high from the floor will it be.

It will be between 1.3 and 1.5m off the floor but not sure yet as I need to have 150 clearance from the towel radiator.

 

[Pauldicker]

A plate switch is allowed outside the zones of a bathroom. A switch should be at least 0.6 m from the edge of the bath or shower (outside the zones) and must be suitable for the location. The cords of cord-operated switches are allowed in zones 1 and 2 and are recommended for bathrooms and shower rooms to account for the humidity and condensation that could occur.

So as long as its an appropriate Bathroom IP rated plate switch it can be just outside Zone 2 so 730mm is 130mm safely outside zone 2

I did see the reference to a plate switch but presumed that related more towards a switch for an electric towel heater,
Yes your right it is over 1300 outside zone 1 and 730 outside zone two.

 

[telectrix]

put it outside.use a metal faceplate. connect L to the earth terminal. cheeky girls won't do it twice. ( joking btw).

 

[Pauldicker]

That sounds reason enough to put it outside to me, you know, for a laugh.
Did you mean Czech girls or cheeky girls ? If you meant cheeky girls do you mean the cheeky girls ? and were the cheeky girls Czech ?

Bloody typo's

 

[Pauldicker]

put it outside.use a metal faceplate. connect L to the earth terminal. cheeky girls won't do it twice. ( joking btw).

 

[westward10]

Are you intending to reuse the pull switch or are you using a plate switch, I ask because of the 1.5m.

 

[Andy78]

A plate switch is allowed outside the zones of a bathroom. A switch should be at least 0.6 m from the edge of the bath or shower (outside the zones) and must be suitable for the location. The cords of cord-operated switches are allowed in zones 1 and 2 and are recommended for bathrooms and shower rooms to account for the humidity and condensation that could occur.

So as long as its an appropriate Bathroom IP rated (IPX4) plate switch it can be just outside Zone 2 so 730mm is 130mm safely outside zone 2

There is no requirement for anything to be IPX4 outside the zones as far as I know.

 

[Pauldicker]

Are you intending to reuse the pull switch or are you using a plate switch, I ask because of the 1.5m.

No a plate switch I am not sure on the height yet all my others are at around 1.35m but I'm conscious of the clearance from my chrome radiator so may have to raise it slightly

 

[Pauldicker]

I might just put the L on the Earth and wait for the wife to switch it on.

 

[westward10]

There is no requirement for anything to be IPX4 outside the zones as far as I know.

No it only applies to zones 1 and 2 but outside the zones you have to take Reg 512.2 into consideration.

 

[Andy78]

No it only applies to zones 1 and 2 but outside the zones you have to take Reg 512.2 into consideration.

Yep I'm very aware of that, but no specific IP rating for outside zones is stipulated. IPX4 is suitable for splashes, but splashes are unlikely to be encountered outside the zones.
Collection of moisture through condensation is more likely the culprit 730mm outside of zone 2. Appx 5 defines this as code AD2 which is satisfied by IPX1 or IPX2.

 

[Pauldicker]

Yep I'm very aware of that, but no specific IP rating for outside zones is stipulated. IPX4 is suitable for splashes, but splashes are unlikely to be encountered outside the zones.
Collection of moisture through condensation is more likely the culprit 730mm outside of zone 2. Appx 5 defines this as code AD2 which is satisfied by IPX1 or IPX2.

So a plain whit Mk light switch will suffice. I don't fancy on of those outdoor grey switches.

 

[Pat H]

My worry is wet people with wet hands walking from the shower and switching the switch.
Granted you aren't in the bath or the shower but even so..
So pull cords are safer. Then again if the lighting is on an RCD your protected.

 

[Pauldicker]

My worry is wet people with wet hands walking from the shower and switching the switch.
Granted you aren't in the bath or the shower but even so..
So pull cords are safer. Then again if the lighting is on an RCD your protected.

I did consider that, however the wettest I think hands will be is damp.
So I'm not expecting water to be running off hands.

 

[westward10]

You can never guarantee that switch will not get splashed with water.

 

[Pat H]

Your in the shower in the evening and the light goes off (blown bulb maybe) the first thing somebody would do is get out and try the switch. Probably dripping wet. So it can happen so if a wall switch is a must then I'd have it RCD protected. which means at worst you get a little zap.

What about something like this:
Bathroom Sensor Switch | Tile Switch | Touch Switch PIR Movement Switch - http://www.sensor.co.uk/switches/bathroom_switch/

 

[sparksburnout]

That sounds reason enough to put it outside to me, you know, for a laugh.
Did you mean Czech girls or cheeky girls ? If you meant cheeky girls do you mean the cheeky girls ? and were the cheeky girls Czech ?

Czech girls what websites have you been visiting apart from this one then Andy?

 

[sparksburnout]

Your in the shower in the evening and the light goes off (blown bulb maybe) the first thing somebody would do is get out and try the switch. Probably dripping wet. So it can happen so if a wall switch is a must then I'd have it RCD protected. which means at worst you get a little zap.

What about something like this:
Bathroom Sensor Switch | Tile Switch | Touch Switch PIR Movement Switch - http://www.sensor.co.uk/switches/bathroom_switch/

It is bl^^^dy RCD protected, he said it was in the OP. I wish folks would read things......

 

[Pat H]

It is bl^^^dy RCD protected, he said it was in the OP. I wish folks would read things......

I didn't say it wasn't. I do think its safer to re-iterate RCD protection when talking about plate switches in bathrooms. You can't be sure the whole thread will be read in the future when another poster is searching for answers.

 

[westward10]

Never assume an rcd is God's gift for you not dropping dead from an electric shock.

 

[Pat H]

Never assume an rcd is God's gift for you not dropping dead from an electric shock.

Ah but touch it again and you may just be brought back.

 

[sparksburnout]

I think a switch would have to be absolutely drenched in water, dripping down it, in order to get a shock. That is obviously why the 0.6M distance is stipulated, so the shower head, for example, won't be directed at it. I don't think a person, however wet, would be in danger from operating the switch, personally.
I mean wet from the shower, not wet generally.

 

[westward10]

I think a switch would have to be absolutely drenched in water, dripping down it, in order to get a shock. That is obviously why the 0.6M distance is stipulated, so the shower head, for example, won't be directed at it. I don't think a person, however wet, would be in danger from operating the switch, personally.
I mean wet from the shower, not wet generally.

I agree but is the accessory going to be effected but water splashes, yes you can't guarantee it won't. My opinion is to put it outside the room or fit a pull switch.

 

[Andy78]

You can never guarantee that switch will not get splashed with water.

You could say exactly the same about any accessory above counter in a kitchen or in a downstairs WC with a basin.

 

[Dave OCD]

The regulations stipulate a minimum standard for safety and you can measure and quote zones all day but I will never fit a normal wall switch in a bathroom or shower room, it's just not right!

 

[NDG Elecs]

Get it fitted man! I don't think there is an ongoing plethora of deaths across Europe from bathroom switches in bathrooms. Use a wide rocker switch if you feel the need.

I do have a personal aspect to this in that a fellow spark disconnected a plate switch I installed in a bathroom and fitted a pull, whilst telling the owner it was not allowed. The switch I installed was a good distance away from the bath and in my opinion perfectly safe.

 

[David M]

The regulations stipulate a minimum standard for safety and you can measure and quote zones all day but I will never fit a normal wall switch in a bathroom or shower room, it's just not right!

To be fair, for me it depends on the situation. I have fitted bathrooms where the rooms are as big if not bigger than most folks living rooms. By time they got to the switch they'd be drip dry
Personally I would take the regs as a worst case guide, in that if I felt that a switch could possibly lead to a potential dangerous situation, even though it met with the regs I would still not install it. As an example I was asked to install one which was within the regs requirements, but in my eyes it was just too close to call so I refused to do it. Outside is (in my view) always the preferred option, but not always necessary or practical.

 

[NDG Elecs]

it's just not right!

Yes is it Dave!

 

[Pauldicker]

I

To be fair, for me it depends on the situation. I have fitted bathrooms where the rooms are as big if not bigger than most folks living rooms. By time they got to the switch they'd be drip dry
Personally I would take the regs as a worst case guide, in that if I felt that a switch could possibly lead to a potential dangerous situation, even though it met with the regs I would still not install it. As an example I was asked to install one which was within the regs requirements, but in my eyes it was just too close to call so I refused to do it. Outside is (in my view) always the preferred option, but not always necessary or practical.

Think the difference between inside an outside is not really an argument as if your dripping wet inside you wont suddenly dry when you cross the door frame into the otherside which i might add is probably 3 inches. (No jokes) my thing is i hate the pull cord and was just querying the specifics of the regs in relation to the switch and suitable distance.

 

[Pauldicker]

To be fair, for me it depends on the situation. I have fitted bathrooms where the rooms are as big if not bigger than most folks living rooms. By time they got to the switch they'd be drip dry
Personally I would take the regs as a worst case guide, in that if I felt that a switch could possibly lead to a potential dangerous situation, even though it met with the regs I would still not install it. As an example I was asked to install one which was within the regs requirements, but in my eyes it was just too close to call so I refused to do it. Outside is (in my view) always the preferred option, but not always necessary or practical.

I did consider an occupancy sensor. But the amount of time im up in the night it would be annoying

 

[westward10]

So the reason for a plate switch is because you hate pull switches.

 

[Midwest]

You could say exactly the same about any accessory above counter in a kitchen or in a downstairs WC with a basin.

I have this horrible image, of a bloke at the kitchen sink, completely starker's stood in a pool of water, doing the washing up

 

[Midwest]

I've seen hundreds of bathrooms & ensuites with a wall plate switch. They've all been placed outside the room, I wonder why? Unless you have a bathroom the size of Donald Trump's, I'd follow tradition and make those 'cheeky girls' behave themselves.

 

[Pat H]

You could say exactly the same about any accessory above counter in a kitchen or in a downstairs WC with a basin.

But isn't the point that its only a bathroom you are likely to be wet from head to foot with bare feet greatly increasing your conductivity. WCs and kitchens you may have wet hands but likely to have footware on.

 

[Andy78]

But isn't the point that its only a bathroom you are likely to be wet from head to foot with bare feet greatly increasing your conductivity. WCs and kitchens you may have wet hands but likely to have footware on.

I was addressing the question of the likely external influence, not the likely dress state of the user.

 

[Andy78]

I've seen hundreds of bathrooms & ensuites with a wall plate switch. They've all been placed outside the room, I wonder why? Unless you have a bathroom the size of Donald Trump's, I'd follow tradition and make those 'cheeky girls' behave themselves.

Like you say, tradition is mainly why plate switches are avoided. I'm not saying pull cords are not safer, they obviously are, just that plate switches are not necessarily unsafe. Placing a wall switch outside a bathroom is no guarantee that it is not going to be operated by someone wet and naked.

 

[Midwest]

Like you say, tradition is mainly why plate switches are avoided. I'm not saying pull cords are not safer, they obviously are, just that plate switches are not necessarily unsafe. Placing a wall switch outside a bathroom is no guarantee that it is not going to be operated by someone wet and naked.

But they've have to leave that special location to operate that switch. Realistically speaking, with a switch outside, if a person needs a light on when using the bathroom, they will turn it on before entering the bathroom and turn it off when leaving. Invariably on both occasions, bone dry and not stood naked in a pool of water.

 

[Andy78]

But they've have to leave that special location to operate that switch. Realistically speaking, with a switch outside, if a person needs a light on when using the bathroom, they will turn it on before entering the bathroom and turn it off when leaving. Invariably on both occasions, bone dry and not stood naked in a pool of water.

Like I said, you can't say that invariably someone will be dry when operating a wall switch outside a bathroom. There are variables. Like someone leaving the bathroom before drying.
It certainly limits the chances but does not exclude it.

The OP's concerns are about whether a wall switch outside the zones in a bathroom is against the regs and/or unsafe.
The correct answer to that must be that it is allowed and it is not inherently unsafe. It could be safer of course through the use of pull switches or wall switches outside the bathroom, but the choice is down to the installer as to what the likely external influences are and whether the products used are appropriate.

 

[Wilko]

Not only bathrooms ... I have been concerned seeing small W/C with hand wash sink and light switch right beside where folks may be using it repeatedly and the water path through the switch building up. And plenty still without RCD.

 

[Midwest]

The OP's concerns are about whether a wall switch outside the zones in a bathroom is against the regs and/or unsafe.
The correct answer to that must be that it is allowed and it is not inherently unsafe. It could be safer of course through the use of pull switches or wall switches outside the bathroom, but the choice is down to the installer as to what the likely external influences are and whether the products used are appropriate.

There are examples in BS7671 that gives guidance as to what is allowed or permitted. It does not give guidance as to what is safe or unsafe.

I note from section 701, there is a description of zones 0, 1 & 2 and what and cannot be installed in those zones. There is no such guidance as to what or should not be installed outside of these zones, except 'socket-outlets are prohibited within a distance of 3m horizontally from the boundary of zone 1. There is no other guidance for what can be installed outside of these zones in locations containing fixed bath (etc) or shower, other than it does not apply to switches & controls which are incorporated in fixed current-using equipment for use in that zone or to insulating pull cords of cord operated switches.

Therefore one could install a plate switch outside of zones as it does not appear to contravene any regulation within BS7671. But that ordinary plate switch could be operated by someone stood in the bath or shower.

So IMO, 'the correct answer to that must be, that 'it appears that' it is allowed, but it is inherently unsafe'.

 

[sparksburnout]

Blimey, are nervous breakdowns more common amongst electricians? I think NDG is about right here, JFDI.

 

[Andy78]

There are examples in BS7671 that gives guidance as to what is allowed or permitted. It does not give guidance as to what is safe or unsafe.

I note from section 701, there is a description of zones 0, 1 & 2 and what and cannot be installed in those zones. There is no such guidance as to what or should not be installed outside of these zones, except 'socket-outlets are prohibited within a distance of 3m horizontally from the boundary of zone 1. There is no other guidance for what can be installed outside of these zones in locations containing fixed bath (etc) or shower, other than it does not apply to switches & controls which are incorporated in fixed current-using equipment for use in that zone or to insulating pull cords of cord operated switches.

Therefore one could install a plate switch outside of zones as it does not appear to contravene any regulation within BS7671. But that ordinary plate switch could be operated by someone stood in the bath or shower.

So IMO, 'the correct answer to that must be, that 'it appears that' it is allowed, but it is inherently unsafe'.

I obviously disagree
But then it's not me you need to convince, that would be the IET.

Their guidance is:
Section 701 does not specify any additional ingress protection requirements beyond zone 2. This means that accessories, such as switches and fused connection units, can be installed beyond zone 2, subject to the requirements of Regulation 512.2 (external influences).

(Taken from IET wiring matters issue 53)

The issue of considering external influences outside of zones has already been mentioned in this thread.

Like I said, it's down to the installer to assess each installation and use their judgement.
Would I fit a plate switch in a bathroom in every instance when asked ? Nope.
Have I got switched accessories in my bathroom at home ? Yep.
Could I code accessories in a bathroom fitted in accordance with BS7671 on an EICR ? Nope.

 

[Midwest]

I obviously disagree
But then it's not me you need to convince, that would be the IET.

Their guidance is:
Section 701 does not specify any additional ingress protection requirements beyond zone 2. This means that accessories, such as switches and fused connection units, can be installed beyond zone 2, subject to the requirements of Regulation 512.2 (external influences).

(Taken from IET wiring matters issue 53)
QUOTE]

One of these then

 

[Midwest]

Flippin heck. To my above post!

One of these then