Bonding of machinery control panels

[netblindpaul]

dasrik,
There are not many courses on 60204, you may find related courses at private training providers & equipment manufacturers.

I would not mind betting that I have been in one of your companies plants at one time or another.
There are sections of statute law with regard to competence, and selection of competent contractors, along with criminal and case law to back these up.
If I were your employers H&S advisor, I would be thinking about putting a case together to defend a HSE prosecution, because that is where this should be going IMHO.

 

[netblindpaul]

ian,
He was also injured and ended up in hospital so that section applies too.

If HSE twig and send an electrical controls engineer in there there could be trouble!!!

 

[Knobhead]

I’ve been forced in to control modifications I didn’t agree with. But look at it this way, “make the changes or find a new job”, what do you do?

I came close to killing 4 people before I got the veto on control modifications that I felt would be unsafe.

Management hold the whip hand, production is everything! Safety? What’s that?

 

[Specialist]

. "I haven't touched the machine although it has been modified"

Hi Dasrik: Just wondering, do you mean modified before the accident or since ?

 

[netblindpaul]

Nice call Specialist!
If the machine has been changed since the accident and there is an investigation then it could mean a tempering with evidence case.
This would depend on the exact situation, how the IP was taken off site and several other small details.
Were the HSE & the Police informed immediately?
The severity of the injuries would dictate that, was the IP admitted via A&E, taken via ambulance etc.?
If they attended A&E then the hospital will inform the Police & HSE as a matter of course.

 

[Specialist]

Hi Paul: I'm hoping Dasrik will come back & fill us in on the rest of the story, would also be nice to get an update on the Guy that got injured.
Unfortunately there seem to be a lot more Electrical "Accidents" in Industry than anyone ever gets to hear about or more to the point in a lot of cases nothing ever gets reported.

 

[Inteificio]

Inteificio,
You must be minted then, because 7671 is one of the cheapest standards on a £ per page level & most people seem to moan about this.
60204-1 is currently £224.00.
The pdf is only 130 pages!
Check the value on 7671 now!

I simplify things as on a forum. My statement should have read... I will pester the F$%^ out of the management until they buy me the dam PDF. =-)

 

[Inteificio]

Regarding value, however cheap bs7671 is, if it does not cover the standards I need then it is not good value.

I do like my BS7671, but am convinced that I am the only one who reads it sometimes. The amount of **** I get for expecting a circuit I am working on to be compliant is ridiculous. One of the supply circuits testing last week has a D63 breaker on it. To be compliant it wants a b40, I got shot down when I brought it up, so wrote out the maths clearly (needs to be in crayon for my manager to follow), still got shot down. He 'cites' experience is more important that correct rating.

Well due to pressure I signed off the circuit.... with his name ;-)

 

[Specialist]

Well due to pressure I signed off the circuit.... with his name ;-)[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a typical manager.

 

[dasrik]

Specialist - The panel was modified after the accident (i don't know how much) but i'm pretty sure
it shoudn't of been touched at all, now the panel has been removed and the unit has been returned
to its original state which was pneumatic controls.

I don't know too much about the injury's the guy has but he is still in hospital and probably will be
for a while, with dislocations and fractures to at least one arm. Apparently he will need 2 operations to
re-set the dislocations. As far as im aware this was just from the shock!

i have been pestering for BS 60204 but still not seen it, i am now refusing to work on any panel until
i can be sure of the regs and have locked off a machine due to inadequate earthing. The annoying thing is
someone will probably of put it back in service over the weekend.

 

[Specialist]

Specialist - The panel was modified after the accident (i don't know how much) but i'm pretty sure
it shoudn't of been touched at all, now the panel has been removed and the unit has been returned
to its original state which was pneumatic controls.


I don't know too much about the injury's the guy has but he is still in hospital and probably will be
for a while, with dislocations and fractures to at least one arm. Apparently he will need 2 operations to
re-set the dislocations. As far as im aware this was just from the shock!



i have been pestering for BS 60204 but still not seen it, i am now refusing to work on any panel until
i can be sure of the regs and have locked off a machine due to inadequate earthing. The annoying thing is
someone will probably of put it back in service over the weekend.

Ooh that stinks of cover up does'nt it ? Hope the Guy is going to be OK, was he working on a ladder or something when he got shocked ?

Just make sure to CYA by documenting everything you do & why you do it, if you lock off a machine then make sure you keep a note of it in a small notebook. It's too easy for Factory records to Dissapear.
Appologies if i'm preaching to the converted mate.

 

[Inteificio]

Specialist - The annoying thing is
someone will probably of put it back in service over the weekend.

Can't remember the exact rules on this, but I think it is your responsibility to make unsafe equipment unusable. Normally I would see it as isolate and lock off, or just cut the dam plug off if small equipment. However if you think your lock will be cut, and you consider it dangerous I would get creative.

A semi related example of being creative was our plug in 110v transformer (chained in) was being stolen repeatedly. Easy for an unskilled person to use a bolt cropper. So I got a 20kg transformer and wired it straight in to a 3 phase isolator. Most people would not know how to safely remove it from the isolator, and the weight will put people off too, so hopefully it will stay.

So if an unskilled person can remove the lock on an isolator, would they be able to identify a missing section of factory bus bar; or an introduced fault that will trip if the circuit is switched on?

If you think the machine is dangerous, make sure it cannot be used.

 

[dasrik]

Specialist - i am enforcing a heavy amount of CYA! Especially as i am kicking up a bit of a fuss.

Inteificio - My issue with the machine is the specifics of the earthing, currently supply comes in to isolator but earth goes
straight to din rail, not the isolator earth terminal or the panel MET. As i don't know what the regs are on this and in order to cover my arse i can't do anything.
Next issue - lock offs, our procedure is... Lock off padlocks on a board in workshop if we lock a machine off we put the key back on the board so anyone can get access to. I'm pretty sure this isn't adequate.

Since the accident a rather hasty document has been put together that we have had to sign. It explains the importance of bonding panels and asks us to take all earths to the panel MET first, however without seeing the regs i don't think we can do anything to the earthing and may result in working machines being locked off - this will go down a treat

Does anyone with BS 60204 or access to it know if there are any specifics with regard to earthing and bonding inside?

 

[Specialist]

Specialist - i am enforcing a heavy amount of CYA! Especially as i am kicking up a bit of a fuss.

Inteificio - My issue with the machine is the specifics of the earthing, currently supply comes in to isolator but earth goes
straight to din rail, not the isolator earth terminal or the panel MET. As i don't know what the regs are on this and in order to cover my arse i can't do anything.
Next issue - lock offs, our procedure is... Lock off padlocks on a board in workshop if we lock a machine off we put the key back on the board so anyone can get access to. I'm pretty sure this isn't adequate.

Since the accident a rather hasty document has been put together that we have had to sign. It explains the importance of bonding panels and asks us to take all earths to the panel MET first, however without seeing the regs i don't think we can do anything to the earthing and may result in working machines being locked off - this will go down a treat

Does anyone with BS 60204 or access to it know if there are any specifics with regard to earthing and bonding inside?

Glad to see were on the same CYA page mate, Don't know off hand the Regs with regards to accessibility of Lock off keys but if I remember correctly they should only be accessible to Authorised persons. I worked in a Big Flour mill a while ago now & all lock offs were kept in a secure locked cabinet only accessible to us. When we wanted to do a lock off we took the kit, signed for it & then kept the key with us until the job was completed.

 

[netblindpaul]

There are about 30 pages (ish) with regard to connections & earthing.
Also the equivalent to BS7671 Section 441 is referenced as being required along with 543 & 554 will look for a bit more later.

 

[dasrik]

Cheers Paul,

I have had a look at the Regs and haven't found too much that helps. In my book 441 is "reserved for later use". I can't quite remember what the other ones said but one covered incoming earth - most of our machines are on a plug and socket so this is limited by the supply, i think?

FYI - the hospital are classing the injured guy as having been Electrocuted apparently they use this to class severe shocks where the person could quite easily of died.
Just thought i would add that in - i now feel vindicated in my use of terminology

I have another query but i will start another thread about that, this one is getting a bit long.

 

[netblindpaul]

I did not cross refer to 7671 TBH.
I quoted 60204-1.
In which case it will be 60364-4-41 IIRC.
I'll try to check.