C3s putting you in harms way ??

[Pretty Mouth]

I'm with @Soi disant on this one.

BS7671 tells us how a new installation should be, so using it we can identify non compliances. What it doesn't generally do is tell us why it should be that way, or the level of danger (if any) that a particular non compliance might lead to. Yes, engineering judgement and experience are both needed for periodic I&T, but we need industry guidance too. To calibrate our judgements against, and for consistent coding throughout the industry. And, should we find ourselves in trouble, to at least go a little way toward backing up our decisions.

 

[UNG]

Please show where I've even suggested that I am.

You keep promoting these gospels according to the CPS's in such a way that you must be getting commission on sales

That's all true, but you were arguing against the use of best practice guides issued by officially recognised organisers of competent person schemes, saying that non-conformances should only be judged against the wiring regs, so it seemed reasonable to consider the fact that those contain effectively nothing in the way of guidance on codings.

Perhaps if you'd said at the outset that the substitute for scheme BPGs is proper qualifications, the appropriate skill set and experience, not BS 7671?

You have guides that are produced by 2 organisations which over recent years it has become quite clear that they are vying with each other to be top dog it is a pity they don't put as much effort into raising the standards of training from the gutter level they have pushed the industry into

The wiring regs lay down the standards an installation must meet to be compliant supported by the onsite guide how difficult is it to make that decision when it comes to coding a non-compliances that you have to pick up yet another publication where the authors / contributors can't all agree when you speak to some of them on the correct coding of some issues
With a book that lists a generic faults and coding solutions what do you do when none of the generic faults matches what you have found if the NAPIT / NICEIC publications differ where do you go for the casting vote

However, you are ignoring the fact that virtually every industry and profession has defined best practices, and the fact that as soon as it's made legally mandatory for non-conformances to be rectified, and made a criminal offence to fail to do so, we really should strive to have a system where non-conformances are coded consistently, day in, day out, from one end of the country to another.

While industries have best practices the electrical industry mandarins have chosen to totally ignore a number of best practices within the industry to the extent we now have a shambles of an industry driven by money and petty bickering and not by standards

If you think about it, BS 7671 is nothing but a large best practice guide for how electrical installations shall be designed and constructed, and I don't see people saying that we shouldn't have it, that we should just rely on people who carry out design and construction etc having proper qualifications, the appropriate skill set and experience.

I don't need to think about but may be you do if you think BS7671 is a best practice guide , BS7671 is an industry ACOP's currently supported by a set of guidance notes that has been around in many different editions for many years

There is much that is unsatisfactory about the present situation, such as different BPGs giving different guidance, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the idea of having them

The thing wrong with these publications they prop up poor training, a poor skill set and a lack of experience and elevate people beyond their real level of competence

Why have the IET not published any guidance on coding or do they consider it is already out there in the publications they have produced

 

[David Anthony]

• https://forum.warrington-worldwide.co.uk/profile/2335-algy/

Posted April 1, 2013
"The Ferrari F1 team fired their entire pit crew yesterday."This announcement followed Ferrari's decision to take advantage of the British government's 'Work for your Dole' scheme and employ some Scouse youngsters.

The decision to hire them was brought about by a recent TV documentary on how unemployed youths from Toxteth, Liverpool were able to remove a set of wheels in less than 6 seconds without specialist equipment, whereas Ferrari's existing crew could only manage it in 8 seconds with millions of pounds worth of high tech gear.

It was thought to be an excellent, bold move by the Ferrari management team, as most races are won and lost in the pits, thus giving Ferrari a massive advantage over every other team.

The scouse lads were brilliant at their home practice sessions, however, Ferrari got more than they bargained for! At the crew's first real race practice session at Le Mans, not only was the scouse pit crew able to change all four wheels in under 6 seconds but, within 12 seconds, they had re-sprayed, re-badged and sold the car to the McLaren team for 8 cases of Stella, a bag of ganja and some photos of Lewis Hamilton's bird in the shower.

Brilliant Metaphor! Penalty for cheap and cheerful electrical bodge work

 

[loz2754]

I try to take the balanced view, that if you NEED a book to decide for you what code to record, then you shouldn't be allowed to do inspection and testing, as you obviously don't yet have the necessary experience. On the other hand, it's occasionally helpful to look at such a book if there's a particularly unusual situation, as no one person has come across EVERY possible scenario.

In my opinion of course.

 

[telectrix]

form someof the crap EICRs I've seen, the guidance on issueing a satisfactory or an unsatisfactory report is all down to whether @er indoors wants a new pair of shoes. C1 for Gucci, C2 for Dior. ( C3 for market trainers).

 

[old man sparky]

Did you actually read ALL of my post and did you actually digest any of it before you responded.

Why are you so insistent that the gospels according to NAPIT and / or the NICEIC is law' they are full of generic circumstances with generic codings that in the case of codebreakers even the contributors can agree on

There is no substitute for proper qualifications, the appropriate skill set and EXPERIENCE when it comes down to making the decision at the coalface for what coding is needed for a non compliance with BS7671. If you are not able to do that then IMO you should not be doing EICR's, back when I did the 2391 the book you needed was the current BS7671 to make that informed decision not a load of dodgy money making publications

To be honest the biggest non compliance currently is the lack of proper training or the task in hand which should be coded as a C1+++

Completely agree with all you say I really do. The problem is we are getting to a point where good electricians will be having sleepless nights because there being held accountable by an aggressive legal team who can pick holes in all those grey areas we mention on forums like this. What grey areas I hear you ask. Anything that results in long debates of code 2, code 3, regulation this, regulation that, mandatory, non mandatory. A good legal team will be laughing its socks off. We are electricians not lawyers and any sparky who feels smug and cosy hiding behind a book is going to be in for a hell of a shock. (Excuse the pun)
If we find ourselves having differing opinions, and providing different interpretations on this forum. We need to start looking at the bigger picture and realising that sooner or later WE are the ones that are being put in harms way. Please don't think that any level of experience and qualifications will make you bullet proof in this tsunami of EICR's that are recently becoming a legal requirement. As an example you C3 a 2nd floor flat for no rcd protection to socket circuits because of the very fact the flats 2 floors up. Or even no code it. Some tenant chucks an extension lead out the window and as a result receives a fatal shock. YOUR EICR is now being dragged through the legal system because a life has been lost. You know you have done nothing wrong, but how the hell will that help you with those sleepless night before going to trial. The whole things a farce, and once again good Sparkies will be thrown to the wolves'. and all the rule makers will just crawl back under there stones. Its about time they got there act together and started backing up the very people they purport to support, with some clearly defined legally enforceable guidance.
Mark my words. (Rant over)

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think what we are all saying is that the Electrical trade needs an ACOP.

 

[old man sparky]

I think what we are all saying is that the Electrical trade needs an ACOP.

Yep Exactly !! and it should start with manufacturers being held accountable for the quality and robustness of there components. An example (and I make no apology for bringing up an old subject) The build of main switches.
How many times have you guys just wished you could tighten that main switch terminal so that you can be happy that the copper on that 25mm tail is nice and secure. But no !! you cant, because even though your no Arnold Schwarzenegger any attempt to give it that extra tweak will see the ruddy thing start to part at the seems.
So you rely on that nice torque driver knowing full well that with a little bit of movement the ruddy things going to loosen back up. How was this very serious flaw dealt with when fires started springing up. Surround this shoddy gear in a conductive material in an attempt to contain the fire. (you couldn't make this stuff up) So now you have tick boxes waived in front of you with things like made of non combustible material go on lads what you going to do ?? Plastic C/U no code? code 3? Hang on, looks like its been getting a bit warm !! c2 then. Regardless if 12 months from your EICR the thing goes up in flames, here we go again.
Ok so rented property, mandatory EICRs. Tenant's with a where there's blame there's a claim attitude one side of you. And a landlord going white knuckled holding onto his wallet the other side.
Both waiting for you to sign your life away on the dotted line.
Tell you what lads. If the very documents your relying upon for reference are non mandatory and for guidance purposes only, ie BS7671, Nappit code breakers, NICEICs guides ect. Then lets have a disclaimer stating that EICRs are report only documents based on the opinion of the person inspecting valid at the time of inspection and is FOR GUIDANCE ONLY with no legal re course on the person or persons supplying said report.
Because that's exactly what the powers to be are saying, with all the books and document's there reeling out. (at a profit) So why the hell shouldn't we. (Another rant over, sorry lads)

 

[UNG]

I think what we are all saying is that the Electrical trade needs an ACOP.

The ACOP is BS7671 and has been for many years

 

[Mike Johnson]

BS7671 is not an Approved Code of Practice issued by the HSE.

 

[old man sparky]

I try to take the balanced view, that if you NEED a book to decide for you what code to record, then you shouldn't be allowed to do inspection and testing, as you obviously don't yet have the necessary experience. On the other hand, it's occasionally helpful to look at such a book if there's a particularly unusual situation, as no one person has come across EVERY possible scenario.

In my opinion of course.

I have been driving for over forty years. When I had to change to summer time on the clock in my nice modern car. Like most men I felt I had enough experience to do so without searching through a 90 page users manual. Alas!! after half an hour of cursing and cussing I succumbed. And arriving at menu option 6 setting 22, managed to get the bloody time right. So much for experience and not needing books ??.

 

[Soi disant]

You keep promoting these gospels according to the CPS's in such a way that you must be getting commission on sales

[sigh]Where?[/sigh]

You have guides that are produced by 2 organisations which over recent years it has become quite clear that they are vying with each other to be top dog it is a pity they don't put as much effort into raising the standards of training from the gutter level they have pushed the industry into

Couldn't agree more - I think that NICEIC particularly acted shamefully when they (AFAIR) single-handedly invented the 5DW DI category.

BUT

Consider the official position of the schemes. And the official version of the back-story.

When the government sought to improve the safety of electrical installation work in the home, they brought it within the scope of the Building Regulations. In order for that to be workable they decreed that electricians who were deemed to be competent to do so could self-certify their work as compliant.

They turned to organisations such as the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting and the National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers to run schemes for assessing the competence of electricians, and had their operations and competence verified by the government appointed United Kingdom Accreditation Service.

There is zero chance that any court, or arbitration service, is going to take any notice of an electrician, no matter how qualified, skilled, and experienced, going on about how these schemes have pushed the industry into the gutter. If the issue at stake is how the electrician coded a contravention of the Wiring Regulations they are going to question why he disregarded the advice of NICEIC/NAPIT/whoever contained in their best practice guide(s).

The wiring regs lay down the standards an installation must meet to be compliant supported by the onsite guide how difficult is it to make that decision when it comes to coding a non-compliances that you have to pick up yet another publication where the authors / contributors can't all agree when you speak to some of them on the correct coding of some issues

It's not so much the difficulty of deciding on a code which is the problem, although I'm sure that there are instances where even skilled and experienced people look at something and can't decide if it's obviously a C2 vs C3, it's consistency and predictability.

When the legal status of a tenancy, and a landlord's livelihood are at stake it is not right that they should hinge on whether he had Tom or Dick produce the report.

With a book that lists a generic faults and coding solutions what do you do when none of the generic faults matches what you have found if the NAPIT / NICEIC publications differ where do you go for the casting vote

As I said - it is not satisfactory that different guides give different advice.

While industries have best practices the electrical industry mandarins have chosen to totally ignore a number of best practices within the industry to the extent we now have a shambles of an industry driven by money and petty bickering and not by standards

Yes, but....

I don't need to think about but may be you do if you think BS7671 is a best practice guide , BS7671 is an industry ACOP's currently supported by a set of guidance notes that has been around in many different editions for many years

If you want to dance on the head of the "best practice guide" vs "approved code of practice" pin of terminology then go ahead, but I'm not going to partner you.

Why have the IET not published any guidance on coding or do they consider it is already out there in the publications they have produced

You'd have to ask them why they don't have it in GN3.

 

[Soi disant]

I have been driving for over forty years. When I had to change to summer time on the clock in my nice modern car. Like most men I felt I had enough experience to do so without searching through a 90 page users manual. Alas!! after half an hour of cursing and cussing I succumbed. And arriving at menu option 6 setting 22, managed to get the bloody time right. So much for experience and not needing books ??.

My nice modern car (11 years old) does it automagically. It's quite fun to watch it when the clocks go back, because as well as the digital ones it also has an analogue clock, and the hands don't go backwards, so the first time you turn the ignition on after the end of BST they whizz forwards 11 hours.

My previous car needed me to do it. I just left it on GMT all year round.

 

[Dartlec]

Completely agree with all you say I really do. The problem is we are getting to a point where good electricians will be having sleepless nights because there being held accountable by an aggressive legal team who can pick holes in all those grey areas we mention on forums like this. What grey areas I hear you ask. Anything that results in long debates of code 2, code 3, regulation this, regulation that, mandatory, non mandatory. A good legal team will be laughing its socks off. We are electricians not lawyers and any sparky who feels smug and cosy hiding behind a book is going to be in for a hell of a shock. (Excuse the pun)
If we find ourselves having differing opinions, and providing different interpretations on this forum. We need to start looking at the bigger picture and realising that sooner or later WE are the ones that are being put in harms way. Please don't think that any level of experience and qualifications will make you bullet proof in this tsunami of EICR's that are recently becoming a legal requirement. As an example you C3 a 2nd floor flat for no rcd protection to socket circuits because of the very fact the flats 2 floors up. Or even no code it. Some tenant chucks an extension lead out the window and as a result receives a fatal shock. YOUR EICR is now being dragged through the legal system because a life has been lost. You know you have done nothing wrong, but how the hell will that help you with those sleepless night before going to trial. The whole things a farce, and once again good Sparkies will be thrown to the wolves'. and all the rule makers will just crawl back under there stones. Its about time they got there act together and started backing up the very people they purport to support, with some clearly defined legally enforceable guidance.
Mark my words. (Rant over)

I take your point and they are valid concerns.

Though the reality is that there has always been a "duty of care" on electricians - and landlords have always had a requirement to maintain a safe electrical installation - so the recent law has been more about putting something in writing (badly) rather than a massive change in actual requirements on "legal duties"

Fortunately for any of us having sleepless nights perhaps, but unfortunately for the trade/society in general, there has been little to no appetite to crack down on shoddy workmanship, let alone dodgy advice. The number of prosecutions under Part P has been pitiful, despite the obvious poor workmanship that is regularly displayed on this forum. New Build houses continue to be built shoddily with bad practice evident at every turn, and the companies reel in the profits with no sign of anything ever changing (the opposite perhaps, with the gradual privatisation of building control).

Even Grenfell has not brought a massive change in attitude, given the number of properties that still have similar cladding on many years later with no urgency to fix them until someone has decided who is going to pay.

There have been limited cases brought where individual deaths have occurred, though those were more to do with faking test results or failing to complete relevant documentation rather than actually about the quality of an install or disputing someone's judgement.

At least as things stand, I don't think that those who do their best to follow suitable guidance or have the relevant experience to trust their own judgements have much to fear from lawyers - though it would be nice to know that there was an industry body that was more interested in supporting its members with clear guidance and backing them in such cases than seeking how to increase their income with new schemes and books, etc.

Put simply, there is so much low hanging fruit in the game that anyone who manages to reach even the first branch is likely to be better than average....

Not the situation as it should be, I agree, but that's always been the case...

 

[Soi disant]

The build of main switches.
How many times have you guys just wished you could tighten that main switch terminal so that you can be happy that the copper on that 25mm tail is nice and secure. But no !! you cant, because even though your no Arnold Schwarzenegger any attempt to give it that extra tweak will see the ruddy thing start to part at the seems.
So you rely on that nice torque driver knowing full well that with a little bit of movement the ruddy things going to loosen back up.

And can we please have two sturdy screws for each tail?

How was this very serious flaw dealt with when fires started springing up. Surround this shoddy gear in a conductive material in an attempt to contain the fire. (you couldn't make this stuff up) So now you have tick boxes waived in front of you with things like made of non combustible material go on lads what you going to do ?? Plastic C/U no code? code 3? Hang on, looks like its been getting a bit warm !! c2 then.

Or is it/isn't it under a wooden staircase, or in an escape route?

 

[old man sparky]

My nice modern car (11 years old) does it automagically. It's quite fun to watch it when the clocks go back, because as well as the digital ones it also has an analogue clock, and the hands don't go backwards, so the first time you turn the ignition on after the end of BST they whizz forwards 11 hours.

My previous car needed me to do it. I just left it on GMT all year round.

Yep mines on auto now, so next winter should be ok. But I needed that ruddy book to sort it. Very disappointed in myself. ?

 

[Soi disant]

Edited for clarity:

I don't think that those who do their best have little to fear from lawyers

Did you mean that, or did you mean that you do think that those who do their best to follow guidance etc have little to fear?

In any event, I suspect the biggest fear people should have is not being held to account after some dreadful incident, it's having their report challenged or their payment refused or a refund of it sought by a landlord over disputed C2s.

 

[Soi disant]

Yep mines on auto now, so next winter should be ok. But I needed that ruddy book to sort it. Very disappointed in myself. ?

Didn't buy mine new - IHNI if auto/manual BST switching was something someone had to select in the past.

 

[loz2754]

I have been driving for over forty years. When I had to change to summer time on the clock in my nice modern car. Like most men I felt I had enough experience to do so without searching through a 90 page users manual. Alas!! after half an hour of cursing and cussing I succumbed. And arriving at menu option 6 setting 22, managed to get the bloody time right. So much for experience and not needing books ??.

Nice story. But there's a significant difference between an instruction manual for a specific appliance, and a guidebook designed to take the place of experience (eg. Codebreakers).

Our instruction manual is mainly BS7671, which can be learned and an exam passed on knowledge of its contents, in a matter of a few days. But, as I'm sure many will agree, to be able to look in detail at an existing installation with a view to making recommendations (which could have cost implications along with safety of life implications) takes several years of on the job experience, to do it right.

As I have said, these guides can be useful, but it seems many newly qualified electricians are setting themselves up to do EICRs, using ONLY these guides to help them make their recommendations (because they lack the necessary experience), and getting it very wrong in many cases.

 

[Dartlec]

Edited for clarity:


Did you mean that, or did you mean that you do think that those who do their best to follow guidance etc have little to fear?

In any event, I suspect the biggest fear people should have is not being held to account after some dreadful incident, it's having their report challenged or their payment refused or a refund of it sought by a landlord over disputed C2s.

Joys of editing and changing one clause but not another - as hopefully the rest makes clear I don't think those who make best efforts to follow guidance etc have MUCH to fear as things stand.

No-one should ever be arrogant enough to not occasionally question their own judgement or seek a third party verification or advice - the issue seems to be that what is available is not clear or consistent, or from a source that is so authoritative that it cannot be disputed (not necessarily by lawyers - they will dispute or support anyway as that is their whole method of working).