C3s putting you in harms way ??

[LastManOnline]

You say it’s a claim on your prof. Indemnity ins was the matter over an eicr you carried out I take it, or with cabling that you personally installed?

Not on indemnity. It was a public liability claim. I did a standard electrical installation (new wire). As it was an "open ceiling" design with no attic, cables sometimes routed under the floor and up the walls rather than over the ceiling and down the walls.
Cabling in the floor was in pipe and had a layer of damp course over it but was still compromised

 

[telectrix]

Not on indemnity. It was a public liability claim. I did a standard electrical installation (new wire). As it was an "open ceiling" design with no attic, cables sometimes routed under the floor and up the walls rather than over the ceiling and down the walls.
Cabling in the floor was in pipe and had a layer of damp course over it but was still compromised

surely your insurance will repudiate any claim against you and tell the customer to pursue the builders.

 

[i=p/u]

Yeah work it out, I have a test sheet

 

[UNG]

My inspector from Napit basically advised me of the same potential situation as the OP suggested
I was discussing with him EICR coding, whereas I am generally more lenient on my coding than some, he suggested 'why take the chance? It’s you who will end up in court trying to justify it against some hard nosed lawyer waving the code breakers book at you!’
And sadly, the way the world is heading I have to agree with him, trying to be honest and doing the right thing is just giving more leverage to a lawyer if god forbid it ever got that far
so from now on I have tightened my coding up and have been now using the code breakers book rather than the BPG no. 4 which I used to use as a reference

Good salesman that NAPIT inspector I would think a lawyer would using BS7671 as the go to reference rather than some dodgy book with dubious content

 

[LastManOnline]

surely your insurance will repudiate any claim against you and tell the customer to pursue the builders.

Correct. That is precisely what's being proposed. The approach by the insurance company appears to be "kick the bucket down the road" if the builder can, t be sued then go after the concrete supplier. But you can see where all of this is going. The customer is left in complete limbo with realistically no chance of getting compensation. In the meantime his electrical circuits circuits continue to deteriorate, regularly causing rcd to trip. Massive inconvenience and stress.The I had to act. As a result of carrying out some repairs without the loss adjuster first visiting site, I am informed that the underwriter is almost certainly not going to consider getting involved.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Not on indemnity. It was a public liability claim. I did a standard electrical installation (new wire). As it was an "open ceiling" design with no attic, cables sometimes routed under the floor and up the walls rather than over the ceiling and down the walls.
Cabling in the floor was in pipe and had a layer of damp course over it but was still compromised

Can you tell me exactly what has happened, retarders do not normally have an adverse effect on buried service's, this all sounds a bit off to me.

 

[Soi disant]

Not even AFDDs should get to £1200 for a new board unless it's ludicrously large!

So how much are single-module RCBOs with AFD?

 

[Soi disant]

Possible there's a local 7288 I guess to give him partial benefit of the doubt...

Not a conformant way to provide additional protection.

 

[Soi disant]

I would think a lawyer would using BS7671 as the go to reference

Which says what about how to code non-conformances?

 

[Mike Johnson]

So how much are single-module RCBOs with AFD?

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[LastManOnline]

Can you tell me exactly what has happened, retarders do not normally have an adverse effect on buried service's, this all sounds a bit off to me.

That is currently the only information I have. I traced all the low, resistance faults to the cables buried in the floor. My initial suspicion fell on possible damage to cables caused by work carried out after the original installation was finished.However after carrying out IR tests It quickly became clear that all cables buried in the ground were affected. I had never ecountered a similar situation before so I started asking around. Eventually I got some feedback from a sparks organisation I am a member of (ECSSA). They preceded RECI. They informed me they have being notified of several cases involving concrete from the same time period.
Obviously digging up the floor would be conclusive proof but that is not an option

 

[old man sparky]

A word of warning, as it seems that our trade is the one of the few, where some spark's just love to tell you how amazing and knowledgeable they are compared to the other guy.
Maybe you are !! maybe your not !!
But be under no illusion, your living in exactly the same greenhouse.
And there is always gonna be some guy, one day, who will feel and maybe justifiably so.
That they can do exactly the same to you.
The scheme providers just love to give the impression that by paying the extra dosh, and having that Approved logo, your some how going to be a better more technically minded person. Its all an illusion guys, because if something goes south. They will be the first ones to stab you in the back.
As time has passed I am seeing those who belong to (The Firm) become more accountable and more in harms way.
And those that are the real cowboys slip nicely under the radar with quick hit and run actions that nicely line there pockets.
They wont be on this forum, because they operate in stealth mode. We are the rabbits caught in the headlights.
The enemy is out there and creeping up on you. It ain't some poor bloke who might get the odd thing wrong.
Watch out for one another, and let those without sin cast the first stone. ?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

That is currently the only information I have. I traced all the low, resistance faults to the cables buried in the floor. My initial suspicion fell on possible damage to cables caused by work carried out after the original installation was finished.However after carrying out IR tests It quickly became clear that all cables buried in the ground were affected. I had never ecountered a similar situation before so I started asking around. Eventually I got some feedback from a sparks organisation I am a member of (ECSSA). They preceded RECI. They informed me they have being notified of several cases involving concrete from the same time period.
Obviously digging up the floor would be conclusive proof but that is not an option

Keep us updated with this @LastManOnline , I'm interested to hear how this pans out. Perhaps it will become a common problem in the coming years?

A couple of thoughts: Hard to see how you are responsible for this. As your insurer says, you did nothing wrong so how could you be? Was it known at the time of install that concrete retarder could affect cables inside conduit this way? Bad luck for the homeowner, but why should you take the hit?

Also, cables in conduit in the floor - could it be rodent damage? Perhaps mice are using the conduit runs as tunnels.

 

[Mike Johnson]

That is currently the only information I have. I traced all the low, resistance faults to the cables buried in the floor. My initial suspicion fell on possible damage to cables caused by work carried out after the original installation was finished.However after carrying out IR tests It quickly became clear that all cables buried in the ground were affected. I had never ecountered a similar situation before so I started asking around. Eventually I got some feedback from a sparks organisation I am a member of (ECSSA). They preceded RECI. They informed me they have being notified of several cases involving concrete from the same time period.
Obviously digging up the floor would be conclusive proof but that is not an option

The only thing I can see that would ring true about this if the builder used High Alumina Cement, this has been banned in the UK since 1984, I have no idea about its legality in ROI, but know that it is still available in certain countries and used.

 

[brianmoooore]

If the cables are in conduit, can't you pull one out for inspection?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Should have said it was banned in 1974, doesn't time fly when you are enjoying yourself.

 

[Risteard]

Have being reading this thread with great interest. No need for me to elaborate on previous posts concerns about what we as sparks "are leaving ourselves open for" as we go about our normal daily work. I am currently going through my first professional liability claim. 25 years with same insurance company. Have deliberately gone with the "top of the range" provider (840.00 euros a year for a sole trader).
In the case I, m involved in the issue has to do with the type of concrete used by the builder which has caused damage to cabling. Here's the interesting bit. Because I personally have not being negligent in any aspect my work, the insurance company feel they have no liability. It has been suggested to me to pursue the concrete supplier.
Not the kind of service I expected, but as "welchyboy" alludes to, its the "way the world is"

Are you with Arachas?

 

[LastManOnline]

Keep us updated with this @LastManOnline , I'm interested to hear how this pans out. Perhaps it will become a common problem in the coming years?

Will do. Am waiting on a (hoped for) report from ECSSA

A couple of thoughts: Hard to see how you are responsible for this. As your insurer says, you did nothing wrong so how could you be?

This is the perplexing bit. I am told that if I was negligent I,m covered, but if someone else is, I, m not!!. Make sense

Was it known at the time of install that concrete retarder could affect cables inside conduit this way? Bad luck for the homeowner, but why should you take the hit?

Homeowner is a longtime customer. He has had a lot going on. While I could legally walk away, it's in reality not an option I can consider.

Also, cables in conduit in the floor - could it be rodent damage? Perhaps mice are using the conduit runs as tunnels.

Highly unlikely

 

[LastManOnline]

Are you with Arachas?

Will email you

 

[LastManOnline]

If the cables are in conduit, can't you pull one out for inspection?

Very difficult to do. Have tried. I would personally love to get to the bottom of it. Without going in to any detail you can appreciate the stress this has caused the homeowner and his family.This was designed as an upmarket "granny flat", open ceiling with visible timbers. Virtually all the rewiring has to be surface. So the priority now is to minimise the already considerable inconvenience.