Commercial PIR on a LARGE site.

[IQ Electrical]

In that situation, we would propose a full test and a 20% inspection.

If significant defects are revealed then the inspection percentage should be increased with agreement from the client as additional costs will be involved.

The primary reason for sampling is that faults would be introduced as a consequence of mass dismantling of the installation.

 

[Festerfly]

IQ,

Sorry for the late thanks but much appreciated. ive discussed this with the Customer and aside from confirming the pricing, we are looking to go with Testing plus 20% inspection plus increase as problem found etc.

Most of the works i have seen are likely to be remedial related unless the testing starts to show anything really untoward. Finally making some headway with this i think.. still very daunting though!

Theybe got lots of work needs doing along with the testing and now the PAT testing i due.. might aswell sign myself up for the year!

 

[IQ Electrical]

Make hay while the sun shines!

You'll find most of your defects will come from the visual inspection, damaged accessories, IP problems on DB's and panels etc.

Most of our testing identified defects are failed RCBO/RCD's, low IR's on older installations, and the odd exceeded Zs.

The PAT price is getting hammered at the minute, ridiculous prices reflecting the fact that anyone can be a 'PAT tester'. We stick firmly to our price per item unless there is an unusually large quantity, let the 75 pence an item brigade take it if they want it, we can't make money on that.

 

[nickblake]

no a full test of every circuit is required that will give you a base to monitor the condition for the next inspection , appart from all the testing what i would recommend is you lable the dist boards as you do them if there are more than one also lable the sockets switches outlets with whickh DB they are from and associated circuit 1 it makes life easier and you know what youve tested and also in the future if you have any work from them you can identify the circuits quickly , you have to identify every thing when your testing its so easy to do a quick lable ive just done a wholesalers with 14 Dist boards started off with DB1 which was the main one and ended up with DB 14 labled with 24mm yellow and black letters/numbers and 12 mm lable for all the accessories

 

[IQ Electrical]

I think by "Testing plus 20% inspection" he means a full test?

 

[tonys]

20% Inspection in my world means 20% sampling, because a full visual is the norm lol

 

[IQ Electrical]

20% Inspection in my world means 20% sampling, because a full visual is the norm lol

Absolutely, by inspection, I mean actually dismantling accessories etc.

I'd also get the labelling bit cleared up with the client, we always supply DB schedules as part of the inspection because it's the flick of a button and the printer does the rest but on the sites that we do with 1000+ circuits, it would be impossible to include labelling of accessories (there will be thousands) in with the standard PIR rate.

 

[tonys]

That's the thing, if you pick on areas where you think labeling is required ie a bank of isolators not identified as to what they do, you would put that in with the report, then its up to the client what they intend to do about it.

I don't think people fully understand the concept behind PIR'S.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Just as a point of interest.
What code would you apply to lack of circuit identification in this or similar instances?
Would your choice of code be affected by the number of unidentified circuits?

 

[Festerfly]

I thought IQ meant was as he said only dismantling say 20% of the faceplates / accessories etc.

Really appreciate everyones input thank you. Makes it easier to clarify all points with the customer prior to starting.

 

[tonys]

[FONT=&quot]The service head and the main switchgear are located within cupboard adjacent to Gas intake cupboard. There are no circuit charts or installation records installed adjacent to the mains position.

Someone want to code it to see what people come up with? it is a real finding by the way.
[/FONT]

 

[IQ Electrical]

Just as a point of interest.
What code would you apply to lack of circuit identification in this or similar instances?
Would your choice of code be affected by the number of unidentified circuits?

It would depend on the use of the building, you need to assess the impact of the lack of labelling.
Is it safety or inconvenience?

A factory full of guys who've worked there for years will have no problem knowing which isolator relates to which machine.

A school metalwork classroom is a different kettle of fish.

On my report, one scenario would attract a code 4, the other a 2.

 

[tonys]

IQ - My question relates to the main panel/switch gear for a residential building. Feeds all the dwellings and landlords etc, the building had no maintenance programme in place and was just looked after by a warden.

 

[IQ Electrical]

IQ - My question relates to the main panel/switch gear for a residential building. Feeds all the dwellings and landlords etc, the building had no maintenance programme in place and was just looked after by a warden.

Well there's a definite safe isolation issue there, I'd want to see at least identification of each distribution circuit so I'd allocate a code 2 to that.

 

[tonys]

Well there's a definite safe isolation issue there, I'd want to see at least identification of each distribution circuit so I'd allocate a code 2 to that.

That's what code I gave it. I ripped the installation to pieces along with another 3 courts, all a fair size.

Never got the remedial works, heard a rumor that, the reports and test schedules got stuffed in a draw, the authority did not want pay to put everything right.

When they advertise for the odd Electrician they won't give me an interview.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Yes, how many times do you hand your PIR to the client and watch his/her jaw drop as they read the list of defects?

They don't seem to even consider the fact that the installation might have defects when they send the order for the PIR!

 

[tonys]

Yep, they want some sort of certificate of excellence

 

[leolec]

Yep, they want some sort of certificate of excellence

So if the remedial work isn't carried out - does this void their insurance or effect their responsibility for the people using the building or does it just get swept under the carpet hoping that nothing untoward happens?

 

[IQ Electrical]

If the duty holder is sitting on a PIR with an 'unsatisfactory' assessment, should an incident occur then how would he/she ever prove compliance with EAWR 1989, specifically the 'maintained as practicable to prevent danger' bit?

 

[leolec]

If the duty holder is sitting on a PIR with an 'unsatisfactory' assessment, should an incident occur then how would he/she ever prove compliance with EAWR 1989, specifically the 'maintained as practicable to prevent danger' bit?

Got to be right, I don't think the duty holders are getting it yet, the changes in legislation over the last couple of years have improved things but there's still along way to go.

Is it up to us the electrician to point out their responsibilities or does this just give them too much needle to handle?

 

[mainebankelec]

on the query of pir what coding would you grade a machine interlock isolator being able to be opened to acess inside a machine while turned on?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If the PIR is being conducted solely to BS7671, then no code at all.
If however the extent of the inspection also includes BS EN 60204-1, and if you are using the same coding as for BS7671, then a code 4 if the machine requires a tool for access, or code 2 if not.
Obviously, if the access door is hanging off, or is wide open I would apply a code 1.

 

[aaelectric]

HI i need a few pointers doing a periodic on an old dance studio as i havn done much on commercial..
when doing the pir do you have to test all the sub mains??
there is a3phase ryeful board which has fuses on it then from there are single phase isolators feeding each single phase board around 7 boards.
the sub mains cannot be turned off during normall hours so what would i put on the pir?
also on the pi report do i put the main board as the three phase ryeful board and looped supply as sub main?if sub mains do need to be tested do they just need an r1+r2 & zs.how can i test the ze if i carnt dissconnect main earth?
all the submains are 10mm 2core and are using the armoured sheath as the earthing. is this acceptable or do they need a seperate earth. what equation would you use to work out if the earthing is sufficent.
thanks for the replies in advance. As i haven done much commercial pir's please be leaneant!
aaelectrics.

 

[IQ Electrical]

HI i need a few pointers doing a periodic on an old dance studio as i havn done much on commercial..
when doing the pir do you have to test all the sub mains??
there is a3phase ryeful board which has fuses on it then from there are single phase isolators feeding each single phase board around 7 boards.
the sub mains cannot be turned off during normall hours so what would i put on the pir?
also on the pi report do i put the main board as the three phase ryeful board and looped supply as sub main?if sub mains do need to be tested do they just need an r1+r2 & zs.how can i test the ze if i carnt dissconnect main earth?
all the submains are 10mm 2core and are using the armoured sheath as the earthing. is this acceptable or do they need a seperate earth. what equation would you use to work out if the earthing is sufficent.
thanks for the replies in advance. As i haven done much commercial pir's please be leaneant!
aaelectrics.

Do you consider yourself competent to do this PIR?

Commercial or not, what would you enter on a domestic PIR if the client insisted that a circuit could not be isolated?

If the distribution circuits can't be isolated during normal hours, why not arrange an hour or 2 after close of business to complete the distribution circuit tests and also Ze?

You need to research the adiabatic equation for sizing CPC's etc.

If you're still unsure, why not enlist the help of a competent inspector and assist him during the inspection & testing?

 

[aaelectric]

i would put it in limatations!.i have a good idea of testing all fuseboards etc but not about the testing of submains. i know of the adiabiatic equation. i will have a go at this but could you pls express on the sub main testing etc
thanks IQ

 

[IQ Electrical]

i would put it in limatations!.i have a good idea of testing all fuseboards etc but not about the testing of submains. i know of the adiabiatic equation. i will have a go at this but could you pls express on the sub main testing etc
thanks IQ

If you treat the distribution circuits as you would any other circuit but with a 5 second disconnection time (assuming a TN system).

Have a search of the 'stickies' on the forum for SWA armour size compliance.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I've found it: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...ulations/23288-can-we-use-armour-swa-cpc.html

 

[aaelectric]

thanks iq very helpful!!
so would you do an r1+r2 and zs test on sub mains

 

[IQ Electrical]

thanks iq very helpful!!
so would you do an r1+r2 and zs test on sub mains

If you can do those tests then do them, you'll be doing the Zs anyway at the DBs that the distribution circuits are feeding.

 

[aaelectric]

ok normally when you do readings on larger cables the r1+r2 come out around 0.00 as the furthest run is around 20m
isit worth doing these