Electrician and QS on trial for death of woman

[rompling]

I Know its been posted about before but it seems the trial has begun ....
Very sad
Emma Shaw electrocuted 'because electrician was UNQUALIFIED' | Mail Online

 

[GLENNSPARK]

take them out of circulation...

 

[Darkwood]

Its a shame it takes someones death to show how full of cowboys the industry is .... it has happened before and will no doubt happen again but no matter how tight the watchdogs get you will always have those slipping under the net.

 

[tazz]

This guy was the first electrician to be prosecuted under the new reform act 2005, Since this case, over a thousand more cases have been heard against landlords, hotel owners etc.
Ex-firefighter in the dock over care home alarm failures - Manchester Evening News

This is just some of the cases in London alone
London Fire Brigade - News releases

 

[NickD]

Terrible case, but putting aside for one second the question of whether these guys are cowboys or not...

We know an EICR can never be a perfect complete certificated guarantee of total safety and compliance. What would your reaction be to the suggestion that actually even the most exactingly and correctly carried out EICR would have been unlikely to pick up on a screw, buried in plaster, which had nicked only the line connection of a cable and thus sent live the metal stud the screw was secured in?

Obviously there is the side issue of whether the circuit in question was RCD protected, and if so why it didn't save her.

 

[tazz]

would say without correct bonding, an RCD isn`t worth a carrot

 

[NickD]

would say without correct bonding, an RCD isn`t worth a carrot

But she received a substantial shock current which did not return along the neutral of the circuit supplying the current but instead went down to earth. Result, imbalance and (if present and working) an RCD trip. Or am I missing something?

Although I myself am rather more interested to hear what people think about whether a good EICR would actually have picked up the live metal stud issue.

 

[tazz]

Would say the initial earthing arrangements were at fault, and a full EICR would have pick this up, and rcd can`t trip unless it has a path

 

[NickD]

Would say the initial earthing arrangements were at fault, and a full EICR would have pick this up, and rcd can`t trip unless it has a path

There was a path, unfortunately it included a human being. The earthing of the stopcock must have been good (either by bonding or extraneous) for it to have been the path of the shock down to earth potential, yes?

My question is, would an EICR necessarily pick up a metal stud, quietly minding its own business within a stud wall, which has gone live through accidental contact with a line conductor? Can't see how myself. If there is bonding for the stud metalwork and that bonding is inspectable/testable and inadequate, then yes. But mostly you wouldn't even be aware there's metal stud there, right?

 

[tazz]

See what the more experienced members views are

 

[stevethesparks]

According to the story, it was when she earthed herself by attempting to turn the water supply off is when she was electrocuted. That may well have been correctly bonded? As NickD has said, testing may not have pick up this fault, particularly in dry conditions. As it was due to hidden metal grid it was not necessarily an extraneous conductive part. It was due to water leakage that extended the metal grid works potential beyond the plasterboard / wall.

As regards RCD protection, its not the be all and end all. She may well have only passed a current of 20 -25mA, not enough to trip such a
device but enough to kill.

I'm in no way supporting the electricians as I don't know all the facts, but with the same reasoning, nor am I going to blame them at this stage.

Maybe and just maybe, if the regs were not relaxed regards supplementary bonding in kitchens, this may not have occurred?

 

[Badged01]

Definitely a tragic accident and I will leave the courts to decide the innocence/guilt of the 'electricians'. No doubt there will be 'technical' experts from the 'big boys' giving their evidence against the two.

But it does send a warning signal to all those QS's out there who are signing off others works .... you can end up in just as much trouble when the sh*t hits the fan and Mr H&S comes gunning. And if you are the man at the coal-face doing the work always have at the back of your mind how do I cover my butt on this job. One of your biggest defences is to make sure you've followed BS7671 to the letter, or "interpreted" it correctly as advised by the 'big boys' of the industry !!

 

[Lucien Nunes]

As NickD has said, testing may not have pick up this fault, particularly in dry conditions. As it was due to hidden metal grid it was not necessarily an extraneous conductive part. It was due to water leakage that extended the metal grid works potential beyond the plasterboard / wall.

Maybe. It would be interesting to know just what the insulation resistance of the faulty circuit was when tested before the leak, e.g. whether it was a fail, suspiciously low but still technically a pass, or high enough to be completely unremarkable. I think it is unlikely that a large area of interconnected stud would be unreadably high to earth in a new-build but in the height of summer or if only a small amount of metal is involved, only in contact with wood, it's certainly possible that even a careful test would miss it.

The incident raises the question - is it wise to kneel in a puddle of water nearby to energised circuits? Even if the cable had been intact, or in a different situation, could the water have penetrated other fittings and made the puddle live? Perhaps the correct course of action before mopping up any major leak or spill, would have been to flip the consumer unit off...

The question of whether electrical accidents are the results of a poorly regulated industry or remarkable for their scarcity is not a new one. I have a book over 100 years old that makes exactly this point, stating that the close attention insurers were paying to electrical work and standards was not a sign that electrical work was in general dangerous. Because for every electrical inspector, there were a dozen gas ones, and the same for accidents. It's a reminder that you can't compile decent statistics out of newspaper headlines!

 

[MDJ]

It makes a mockery of the QS system, the QS never ever attended site, he just counter signed another guys certificate. On a large company there is no way a QS can get around every job examining works carried out by all the guys on the company, this enforces the need for competant electricians which is what our whole argument regarding part p is all about, Also to add why isn't the boss of the company in court?? he sent an electricians mate to do the test knowing he wasn't up to the job, the whole thing is crazy and very sad of course due to a death which should have never happened.

 

[tazz]

My understanding of rcds from the 80`s ....is a human body would withstand upto 50mA before fatality occurs....hence rcds where set at 30mA, so using the human body as a path to earth, a limited current would pass in only milli seconds to trip the said rcd, hence saving the life, so Part of the Ecir test, would be the rcd ms timing....

 

[nickblake]

Thought id add a pic of a situation I came across new consumer unit all tested out with no faults just adding a bond cable and moved some pipes in a trunking and an almighty great Bang it was caused by a screw through a cable just touching the live , you cant pic this up on tests it tripped , if it was shear negligence like another recent job i did where on testing i found no earth on the ring mains caused by 9 penetrative faults on the circuit then they deserve all they get , I had my assessment yesterday and i brought this fault up and said how can you test for a screw or nail touching just the live answer you cant as it may not show up

 

[rompling]

In the coming days we will hear all the evidence and I'm not saying this happened here but - I have crossed paths with many so called electricians who do no insulation testing and when I question them they say" if there is a fault it will knock out the mcb or rcd " - hopefully this tragic case will educate them that ALL the tests have to be completed - if at the very least to protect themselves and others in the courts

I really hope the £100 1/2 hour EICR contractors read this and still feel confident when they issue a certificate

 

[southsea1201]

Less than 20mA can kill if it is prolonged for a number of seconds. It is interesting to not that when on the 17th edition course our lecturer told us metal partitioning with T & E cables running through it MUST be earthed. Alternatively armoured cables should be used.

Now I wonder how many builders know this? and that they should call in a sparky before cladding the metal. I wonder whether the manufacturers of this partitioning include this advice in their erection instructions.

In this case it is conceivable that a proper IR test would not have highlighted the problem.

 

[tazz]

Less than 20mA can kill if it is prolonged for a number of seconds. It is interesting to not that when on the 17th edition course our lecturer told us metal partitioning with T & E cables running through it MUST be earthed. Alternatively armoured cables should be used.

Now I wonder how many builders know this? and that they should call in a sparky before cladding the metal. I wonder whether the manufacturers of this partitioning include this advice in their erection instructions.

Good point on builders, and this is my comment on milli seconds and not seconds

 

[Guest111]

If the studwork wasn't earthed and assuming that the screw only nicked the live conductor then I cannot see how it would show a fault under test,also it may not have tripped an rcd due to their being sufficient resistance to prevent current flowing to earth.We've all seen examples of this,the classic is were someone puts a drill into a cable then bangs the plug and screw in to fix a shelf,it may trip something initially but once the drill is removed everything's back up and running.The question needs to be asked as to whether, given the increased use of this metal system of studwork if there is a need for bonding all structures of this type back to a known earth.But them again how far do you go? Do we go back to the old days when even metal window frames were bonded?