EU Brexit - How will you vote given the latest "news"

[Octopus]

Me thinks he's telling porkies AGAIN:

We can control migration inside EU, says PM - BBC News

 

[andyb]

Me thinks he's telling porkies AGAIN:

We can control migration inside EU, says PM - BBC News

You're right Murdoch, he is lying.
He can no more control imigration in the EU than he could if we were out.

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[Midwest]

I watched almost all of that Q&A, and IMO he convinced me. Gonna watch the Gove one tonight, to see if he can convince me otherwise.

 

[Darkwood]

I watched almost all of that Q&A, and IMO he convinced me. Gonna watch the Gove one tonight, to see if he can convince me otherwise.

How did he convince you?.. From what I saw he spent the majority of the time deflecting questions, avoiding answers and when he finally did answer on how do we control immigration he suggested a flawed system that has been failing for the last several years because it doesn't work - how do you expect to deport anyone if they cannot find a job in 6months when we still have a backlog of criminals in the system, enough to fill a small town that we cannot even deport due to EU hoops and red tape thats needed to just deport 1 person... the other week the EU overuled the UK and let a known rapist back into the UK because they didn't deem his history was cause to return him back to his country so it looks like we cannot even send a rapist home now!

 

[Octopus]

You're right Murdoch, he is lying.
He can no more control imigration in the EU than he could if we were out.

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It would be easy to control if we were out. The decisions would be ours to make and take.

Cameron will be history after the 24th June - any credibility he had is evaporating fast now

 

[Midwest]

How did he convince you?.. From what I saw he spent the majority of the time deflecting questions, avoiding answers and when he finally did answer on how do we control immigration he suggested a flawed system that has been failing for the last several years because it doesn't work - how do you expect to deport anyone if they cannot find a job in 6months when we still have a backlog of criminals in the system, enough to fill a small town that we cannot even deport due to EU hoops and red tape thats needed to just deport 1 person... the other week the EU overuled the UK and let a known rapist back into the UK because they didn't deem his history was cause to return him back to his country so it looks like we cannot even send a rapist home now!

I'm not a political animal like some. In my opinion I thought he gave some good replies, he was asked a lot of different questions, and I don't know the format of the Q&A, but he gave answers to all questions and seem to have a knowledge of each subject.

Whilst immigration is an emotive subject at the moment, I don't thing ones whole decision should be based just on that. As someone said this week, if we leave, our borders will move from el Calais to Dover.

Another thing concerns me, is the amount of corporate organisations stating they will relocate if we leave. In my opinion, jobs and economics are one of the key concerns over whether to leave or stay.

I'll watch the flip side, tonight I think it is, and see what Grove has to say.

 

[andyb]

It would be easy to control if we were out. The decisions would be ours to make and take.

Well the facts do not bear that out Murdoch.
Cameron got in on a promise to get immigration down to the tens of thousands. We have total control over non EU immigration and that is nowhere near that figure. In theory we could stop non EU immigration over night but the reality is different.
Outside the EU will be the same. We will still not be able to control immigration.

However I still think you will get your way. The economy will be so trashed that no one will want to come here and there will be no jobs for them even if they did.

Cameron will be history after the 24th June - any credibility he had is evaporating fast now

I hope you're right. But not with Johnson or Osborne taking over.

 

[Darkwood]

I'm not a political animal like some. In my opinion I thought he gave some good replies, he was asked a lot of different questions, and I don't know the format of the Q&A, but he gave answers to all questions and seem to have a knowledge of each subject.

Whilst immigration is an emotive subject at the moment, I don't thing ones whole decision should be based just on that. As someone said this week, if we leave, our borders will move from el Calais to Dover.

Another thing concerns me, is the amount of corporate organisations stating they will relocate if we leave. In my opinion, jobs and economics are one of the key concerns over whether to leave or stay.

I'll watch the flip side, tonight I think it is, and see what Grove has to say.

If will leave our border will remain the same as it is now at dover, our agreement with france to regarding the Calais / Dover arrangment is a deal external to the EU and does not rely on our membership, also it is in both the UK and France's best interest to leave it as it is as this reduces the attraction of using france as a route to Britain, this was the reason it was set up and agreed by both parties... and it worked as it reduced the flow benefiting us both. France has already said there is no intention to change the arrangement if we leave and that was when the IN campaign realised there bluff had been called and stopped saying it (although a few out of touch scaremongerers still say it).

As for the large business throwing scare stories out there about moving or staff reductions... well mostly its just that and the victims if any will be the cheap labour they have access to in the EU, its in all our membership agreements that and exit from the EU will not effect any existing jobs or residences already settled in any country so leaving would not see us sacking and sending back those already employed or resident and vice versa.

As goes for the economical argument, yes there will be job losses as their will be if we remain, everyone seems to forget all those UK citizens that lost their careers and jobs due to EU migration driving down wages replacing our jobs with cheaper labour etc... if we left we already have sealed agreements ready to open worth 10's of billions with the likes of India, Canada etc which at the moment are off the table because the EU has blocked them trading with us due to the likes of other members vetoing the deals like france who say they would loose out if we traded with Canada... so as it goes at the moment a large restriction is been put on out economical growth to protect other members who have a bee in their bonnet and don't like competition. Yes jobs will be lost in the adjustment in the short term but long term we will be free from the stagnated growth of the EU and join the rest of the world and see a healthy growth which means a richer country, higher wages and more jobs.

So far all I have seen is these big corporates who are self interested in our position within the EU make comment and all with regards to their position and ignoring what is best for the country as a whole.

 

[Midwest]

darkwood, I'm off to make the tea. Your obviously well in entombed with the debate, but I'm a political lightweight. More than two paragraphs put me to sleep.

I'll have a read later of your post. No offence.

 

[Octopus]

Well the facts do not bear that out Murdoch.
Cameron got in on a promise to get immigration down to the tens of thousands. We have total control over non EU immigration and that is nowhere near that figure. In theory we could stop non EU immigration over night but the reality is different.
Outside the EU will be the same. We will still not be able to control immigration.

However I still think you will get your way. The economy will be so trashed that no one will want to come here and there will be no jobs for them even if they did.




I hope you're right. But not with Johnson or Osborne taking over.

As I stated, the decisions WOULD be ours to take and make.

As for a Cameron replacement - I can see the Conservatives with a "jeremy corbyn" at the wheel.

The UK doesn't have ANY true leaders at the moment - they are pretty much ALL career politicians without back bones.

 

[telectrix]

well, jeremy clarkson is currently "unbusy". he's the better option of a JC to lead the UK.

 

[Midwest]

well, jeremy clarkson is currently "unbusy". he's the better option of a JC to lead the UK.

Don't know why that block gets some much good press, he's more 'Chipping Norton' than Cameron.

 

[Pete999]

Me thinks he's telling porkies AGAIN:

We can control migration inside EU, says PM - BBC News

You can tell when he is lying, his lips move.

 

[telectrix]

mornin, pete.

 

[Octopus]

You can tell when he is lying, his lips move.

The thing is Pete, on this VERY subject, we all know he's lying as one of the key aims of the EU is freedom of movement and on this basis the Brussels "mob" will not change this - so such a pledge or promised is an unachievable goal.

For me the entire EU strategy now is is about not allowing the Euro to fail - at ANY cost. This means that until the Germans and French agree to treaty change so that ALL the Euro zone countries have political AND fiscal union the mess will only get worse.

 

[Midwest]

You can tell when he is lying, his lips move.

Good shout. To help me making my decision, can you identify me the politician, who's not economical with the truth on this subject?

 

[Octopus]

Good shout. To help me making my decision, can you identify me the politician, who's not economical with the truth on ANY subject?

Corrected that for you!

 

[Midwest]

Corrected that for you!

So I'm stuffed then, can't trust any of them (Leave or Remain). Gonna have to make the decision for myself? Any ideas where I can get some impartial advice? :confused5:

 

[Octopus]

So I'm stuffed then, can't trust any of them (Leave or Remain). Gonna have to make the decision for myself? Any ideas where I can get some impartial advice? :confused5:

I was in the audience for the the Clegg v Ferage EU debate a couple of years ago. I didn't think they were telling us the truth then and I don't think ANYONE is telling us the truth now.

That said you have to remember that Germany and France will do ANYTHING to protect the Euro - the weaker countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy should have been allowed to leave around 2010 - and if they had the EU would have returned to growth a long time ago.

AND remember ALL new countries HAVE to join the Euro when joining the EU.........

 

[andyb]

I don't think ANYONE is telling us the truth now.

They can't all be lying Murdoch.

Remain says there will be job losses, Brexiters say there will not.
Remain says the economy will suffer, Brexiters say it will not
Remain says there will be an impact on security, Brexiters say there will be no impact
Brexiters say we send £350m a week to the EU, remain say we do not

And on and on.

On most points they are arguing polar opposites.

Gonna have to make the decision for myself? Any ideas where I can get some impartial advice? :confused5:

That's right MW. You have to find out as much as you can yourself and make a judgement on that.

Enjoy.