found out electrician not registered midway through rewire

[TrappedinTheWeb]

Hi all
im a non expert homeowner and battling to understand the regulations. And apologies for the length of the post, a long story.
we have an electrician who came to fix a small issue few weeks ago. He seemed good. through discussion he ended up taking on fuse box replacement which we knew was needed and our previous guy had failed to come back to do. He said he could test and certify it when done but when the time came he said he couldn't because his tests showed the wiring was not right, and the house needed a rewire. It All seemed plausible and it is an old house we've recently bought, so not a huge shock to hear this.
We were under the impression the whole time that he was certified, through discussion about getting a cert and because he showed us a cert he had completed with test readings. We do feel he misled us into believing he was certified in some way although we perhaps should have asked for proof.
he is now half way through the rewire and the work to us looks fine, very neat,( though he's insisting that the sockets are placed 450 up under part m, which I now don't think is required in an old house). Had full faith in him until spoke to building control and transpired when directly asked that he can't certify for them and now ive checked and he also doesn't appear on nic eic either. I gather he should have told BC before starting the work which he didn't. So he's breached the regs, right?
we liked him but we think we can't possibly let him continue if he's completely unregistered and unregulated though he may well be qualified. We are worried about all sorts of risks; if it invalidate our insurance and he may not be insured either and we'd have no recourse if issues later. Are we overreacting and how do I broach this with him as he has no idea we are considering cutting his job short.? bC said they will come and certify it for a fee but not sure that's reassuring enough to let him continue.
grateful for any advice, feels like a very difficult situation and we're just not sure what to do.

 

[GMES]

I have left this in the main forum so hopefully the op gets a wider audience.

 

[sparkdog]

Get him to do it through BC if he is alright and knock off the price.

 

[GB.Kayak]

Get him to do it through BC if he is alright and knock off the price.

Sadly, how do any buyers of a specialist service, without some knowledge of the specialist service, 'know' if the person providing that service is 'alright'? 'Governing bodies' are there to assure those without knowledge that someone is 'alright' but many bodies require their members to 'purchase' a piece of paper. Over time it appears that where the people running the scheme profit from that transaction standards appear to slide; all the more so when those at the top of the scheme have little or no knowledge of the business that they are 'regulating'!

 

[TrappedinTheWeb]

Sadly, how do any buyers of a specialist service, without some knowledge of the specialist service, 'know' if the person providing that service is 'alright'? 'Governing bodies' are there to assure those without knowledge that someone is 'alright' but many bodies require their members to 'purchase' a piece of paper. Over time it appears that where the people running the scheme profit from that transaction standards appear to slide; all the more so when those at the top of the scheme have little or no knowledge of the business that they are 'regulating'!

Thanks for the replies.

exactly as Kayak says, we think the work looks ok, but we don't have the knowledge to really know. And will BC be sufficient to know it is? He still has to wire the boiler and cooker, and the new circuits to the fuse board so some bigger items still to do, and I'm also worried that if anything goes wrong, he or we won't have any insurance.

would you let someone who is not part of any body or registered do this kind of work, or would you just say no way even if he'd already started?

 

[malcolmsanford]

It is sad GB Kayak has summed up the situation quite well, but that does not help you in this case.

You are quite correct for your refurbishment/rewire you are not required by the building regulations to have your sockets at that height so that is clear.

I'm afraid what I would do is basically ask him to down tools and stop work. Pay him for material and ask him to give you any outstanding material and tell him you are willing to pay for what work he has done once you have ascertained that the work meets the required standard, or offer him a small payment, and I'm sure he will move on, especially as you know he has not notified the Local Building Control.

Your in the south East there are quite a few lads on here that may take the job over and issue the proper certification for you. It may cost you a little more by doing it this way but you will have peace of mind.

 

[telectrix]

nothing wrong with getting BC to check and sign the job off. the fee is around £300. discuss it with your electrician and see if he's prepared to do this. an alternative is for him to get a scheme member to test and inspect it for him.

 

[D Skelton]

Just because he's not with the NICEIC doesn't mean he's not registered with another competent persons scheme. Also, if he's not registered at all, that doesn't mean to say he's not highly qualified, although the suggestion that sockets have to be at 450mm leads me to believe that he's a classic 'old wives tale' kinda spark. Without more detail, I can't really comment.

One final thing to add. It is the responsibility of the Homeowner to notify Building Control, not the electrician. Being a member of a competent persons scheme just makes that process easier and cheaper.

Where abouts are you in the South East?

 

[amckay]

Just because he's not with the NICEIC doesn't mean he's not registered with another competent persons scheme. Also, if he's not registered at all, that doesn't mean to say he's not highly qualified, although the suggestion that sockets have to be at 450mm leads me to believe that he's a classic 'old wives tale' kinda spark. Without more detail, I can't really coomment.

One final thing to add. It is the responsibility of the Homeowner to notify Building Control, not the electrician. Being a member of a competent persons scheme just makes that process easier and cheaper.

Where abouts are you in the South East?

I've always thought the onus was on the homeowner to notify too. I was speaking to other sparks about this and they said I was talking rubbish. Do you have or know of any links that say so Damien? Just to prove my point. Cheers

 

[D Skelton]

It's all to do with the interpretation of 'the person carrying out the work' which, in the building regulations is interpreted to mean the person responsible, the person enlisting the services of others to do that work. It's always the Homeowner who will be served an enforcement notice for this reason. Part P of the building regulations is a small section at the end that stipulates really that whoever is doing the electrical work needs to make sure it's safe. That's it! Approved document P (an entirely seperate document to Part P of the building regulations) comes along and muddys the waters somewhat. Approved document P, the one we've all actually read, and are required to have in order to join a scam scheme, is nothing but guidance on how to ensure you meet the requirement of the Building Regulations - Part P. We are under no obligation to follow Approved Document P, it even states this somewhere in the first few paragraphs, as there are other ways you can demonstrate compliance with the Building Regulations. Local authorities are often the first port of call to those who want to demonstrate their compliance with the Building Regulations in other ways.

The main problem is that people are often confused between Approved Document P, which is non-statutory guidance, and the Building Regulations - Part P, which is statutory. When looking to define legal interpretations, it is the latter (as a whole) which needs to be turned to.

 

[TrappedinTheWeb]

Thanks for all the replies.
Now I am confused since I was reading the Approved Document P. But that does seem to quite clearly say at 3.8 page 10


'If an installer is not a registered competent person and has not appointed a registered third-party certifier, then before work begins the installer must notify a building control body'

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

I would have thought the 'installer' means the electrician, though perhaps it's not binding as it's not the Regs themselves?

In any case, part of the point of hiring him was that he was holding himself out as someone who really knew the regs (and that he could give us a cert) and I would have expected, as part of the service that he advise us explicitly that he is not registered and we need to tell BC, if he was not doing that himself. He either knows the regs and ignored them, or chose not to mention what was needed in terms of certification (even though we had long discussions about that) or doesn't know the regs - and neither is great tbh.

If we do say to stop work I am not sure what is reasonable to pay him for what is done so far. has has put in the wiring and cavities for the lights and upstairs sockets already, but we still have the original circuitry working so can live in the house with it until we can get someone else, if need be.

Re whether he is part of another body other than NICEIC - Yes completely see that point. If you can tell me what registers to check I will check if he is listed under another, but he's not appearing in any I have checked so far (I wish I had done that before hiring him - lesson learned!). And the company name he gave us is listed as 'dissolved' on Companies House.

Thanks again for all the replies so far . Useful to get views from you all as we don't know how it would be from his PoV.

 

[GB.Kayak]

Thanks for all the replies.
Now I am confused since I was reading the Approved Document P. But that does seem to quite clearly say at 3.8 page 10


'If an installer is not a registered competent person and has not appointed a registered third-party certifier, then before work begins the installer must notify a building control body'

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

I would have thought the 'installer' means the electrician, though perhaps it's not binding as it's not the Regs themselves?

In any case, part of the point of hiring him was that he was holding himself out as someone who really knew the regs (and that he could give us a cert) and I would have expected, as part of the service that he advise us explicitly that he is not registered and we need to tell BC, if he was not doing that himself. He either knows the regs and ignored them, or chose not to mention what was needed in terms of certification (even though we had long discussions about that) or doesn't know the regs - and neither is great tbh.

If we do say to stop work I am not sure what is reasonable to pay him for what is done so far. has has put in the wiring and cavities for the lights and upstairs sockets already, but we still have the original circuitry working so can live in the house with it until we can get someone else, if need be.

Re whether he is part of another body other than NICEIC - Yes completely see that point. If you can tell me what registers to check I will check if he is listed under another, but he's not appearing in any I have checked so far (I wish I had done that before hiring him - lesson learned!). And the company name he gave us is listed as 'dissolved' on Companies House.

Thanks again for all the replies so far . Useful to get views from you all as we don't know how it would be from his PoV.

TTW, ask him which scheme he is registered with, if any. If what he has told you is proving false then perhaps the best thing to do is to put your investigations and concerns to him and if he does not have satisfactory answers to your questions then show him the door. A key question is what regulations he is working to and whether he has a copy, ask him to show you it. The answer should be BS 7671 and he should show you a book ~ A4 in size and about an inch thick with a green or yellow cover; ammendment 3, yellow cover, came out in Jan this year and installations must be in accordance with it from Jul. Even this doesn't necessarily help, because he may have a copy but not be able to interpret or use it!

 

[Tuttle]

If he's a sole trader then he wont be listed on Companies House. Is he trading as a Ltd company?

There could be an innocent explanation, like he is registered with Napit or Stroma and is trading as a sole trader, and you wont know until you ask him.

Also, you talk about regs and certs and this could be confusing as there are wiring regs and building regs and electrical installation certificates and building regulations compliance certificates. He will be able to give you an electrical installation certificate regardless of whether or not he is registered with a part P scheme, but he wont be able to give you a building regulations compliance certificate if he is not registered.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

One of the problems with the approved document, is that there are a number of requirements listed that are not statutory requirements listed in the legislation.
Although the Approved Document states the installer should contact Building Control, there is no statutory requirement for them to do so in the legislation.
In the approved document, only the parts with a green background are Statutory Requirements.

 

[Dave OCD]

Also I think this may vary by Local Authority area but if the person carrying out the work can 'demonstrate competence' - i.e. proof of qualifications/experience as well as submitting a correctly completed certificate then costs can be reduced depending on what,if any additional inspection they feel is necessary.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Hello Trapped.

I am a 'registered' electrical installer with about 3 years experience. I am allowed to complete a full rewire and notify this work to the building authorities. I had to complete a 6 month part time course (some do just 5 weeks) and then apply and get accepted on to one of the recognised government bodies (niceic/elecsa/stroma/napit etc) which was pretty straight forward.

'Telectrix' is another member on this site who has many years experience, has completed a proper apprenticeship and I can't even compare my knowledge to his. He chooses not to be registered with one of the government bodies.

You're not going to know if your chaps' work is any good but just because he isn't registered doesn't mean it isn't. However, being registered does mean that the electrician has to have Public Liability Insurance which is some security for the homeowner. Perhaps you could ask if he has some?

Perhaps you could try and get building authorities involved now? You could also ask the electrician for some contact details of any other recent jobs he has completed and ask the homeowners about his standard of work which may give you some piece of mind?

Good luck.

 

[lecsleaford]

http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Home

This register does not show members who are registered with Stroma so does not include ALL registered members.

 

[amckay]

Thanks to D Skelton for the reply, its appreciated.

I think happyhippydad has hit the nail right on the head with his statement and I couldn't have put it better myself

 

[lecsleaford]

Some Stroma members are on there

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Some Stroma members are on there

My mistake, sorry.

 

[lecsleaford]

I hope the register has everyone on it. I thought that was the idea. Waste of time if they aren't. Tonight is the first time I've looked at it. Checked I was on.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I hope the register has everyone on it. I thought that was the idea. Waste of time if they aren't. Tonight is the first time I've looked at it. Checked I was on.

I have spoken to Stroma and they say they are having difficulty syncing with it...annoying!

 

[NDG Elecs]

I have spoken to Stroma and they say they are having difficulty syncing with it...annoying!

Pay peanuts, you get monkeys..... !! :smile5:

All schemes have their foibles.

 

[Richard Burns]

You can also check on the competent person site very similar to the one linked above but for all trades in competent person schemes.

I should mention that there are two different types of certificate relating to electrical work.

One is an installation certificate as required by the wiring regulations.

The other is required by the building regulations and will be a building regulations compliance or building regulations completion certificate depending on the method of notification.

This maybe why your electrician said he could provide certification, he was talking about electrical installation certificates.

This does not detract from the failure to comply with the legally binding building regulations.

 

[TrappedinTheWeb]

If he's a sole trader then he wont be listed on Companies House. Is he trading as a Ltd company?

There could be an innocent explanation, like he is registered with Napit or Stroma and is trading as a sole trader, and you wont know until you ask him.

Also, you talk about regs and certs and this could be confusing as there are wiring regs and building regs and electrical installation certificates and building regulations compliance certificates. He will be able to give you an electrical installation certificate regardless of whether or not he is registered with a part P scheme, but he wont be able to give you a building regulations compliance certificate if he is not registered.

Thanks Tuttle - these are useful points, and you're right. I guess I don't think not being on Companies House in itself is necessarily a problem, but it means I can't see, say, a history for his company, that would have provided some reassurance given the other uncertainty.

I also take your point that he could mean different certificate - this may be the case, and then it's as much our own confusion. However, if it turns out he is not registered at all with any government scheme, (and that is still an 'if') how can he issue certificates? Or put another way, what qualifies someone to issue installation certs? It would seem strange if anyone who's ever been qualified can issue them, without having to meet any other criteria. But maybe that's the case.

 

[TrappedinTheWeb]

However, being registered does mean that the electrician has to have Public Liability Insurance which is some security for the homeowner. Perhaps you could ask if he has some?

Perhaps you could try and get building authorities involved now? You could also ask the electrician for some contact details of any other recent jobs he has completed and ask the homeowners about his standard of work which may give you some piece of mind?
.

Hi HappyHippyDad,
Thanks for these points. So as a homeowner the PL insurance is a massive worry for me, And one of the main reasons discovering he is not registered was a lurch in the stomach. They were in the house working and if anything happened to them.. what then?
And your suggestions are good ones. I have Building Control calling me today to arrange a site visit - this will be a big help.

I would ask to see other work but tbh I work full time, and I don't have a lot of time to make trips to see things as that often tends to be a distance away so practically that can be tricky, and I would also be a bit unsure I wasn't looking at his friend's house. Sorry if that sounds cynical.. I know most people are honest and straight up, but it's the odd few you have to be careful of.

 

[TrappedinTheWeb]

Home

Thanks Lecsleaford. Useful. He is not on it

 

[TrappedinTheWeb]

It's all to do with the interpretation of 'the person carrying out the work' which, in the building regulations is interpreted to mean the person responsible, the person enlisting the services of others to do that work. It's always the Homeowner who will be served an enforcement notice for this reason.

To let you know on this point, Spoke with BC this morning. They said he should have told us before he started if he's not registered. I asked if it was my responsibility or his? The answer was that the homeowner has the responsibility but you're not going to know the regulations like he should. He would know this and should have done it, or told us (their view).
So seems like the tradesman has the knowledge to do it, but the homeowner carries the can (and presumably takes the fine) if it's not done. So it does bear out what D Skelton has said.

 

[Tuttle]

Hi HappyHippyDay,
Thanks for these points. So as a homeowner the PL insurance is a massive worry for me, And one of the main reasons discovering he is not registered was a lurch in the stomach. They were in the house working and if anything happened to them.. what then?
And your suggestions are good ones. I have Building Control calling me today to arrange a site visit - this will be a big help.

I would ask to see other work but tbh I work full time, and I don't have a lot of time to make trips to see things as that often tends to be a distance away so practically that can be tricky, and also I would also be a bit unsure I wasn't looking at this friend's house. Sorry if that sounds cynical.. I know most people are honest and straight up, but it's the odd few you have to be careful of.

He should have PL insurance regardless of whether or not he is registered with a Part P scheme. This insurance is not normally provided by the scheme provider, it's just that they check that contractors have sufficient PL insurance on the annual visit, so there is little danger of a contractor not having this insurance if they are registered with a scheme

 

[TrappedinTheWeb]

He should have PL insurance regardless of whether or not he is registered with a Part P scheme. This insurance is not normally provided by the scheme provider, it's just that they check that contractors have sufficient PL insurance on the annual visit, so there is little danger of a contractor not having this insurance if they are registered with a scheme

Thanks Tuttle. I guess though if I had thought he wasn't registered, I would have specifically asked and checked he has PL. He has not turned up on any of the registers provided so far, though this may be because I am not searching in the right way. I will ask him if he's registered on a scheme.

 

[ruston]

Thanks Tuttle. I guess though if I had thought he wasn't registered, I would have specifically asked and checked he has PL. He has not turned up on any of the registers provided so far, though this may be because I am not searching in the right way. I will ask him if he's registered on a scheme.

You should of asked if BC would of accepted his qualifications, some will.
He will not need a great lot of qualifications to satisfy entry to a competent person scheme.
Maybe you are worrying to much.

 

[D Skelton]

I have to say, after all of this, have you not just asked the fella??? We're doing all of this guess work and yet none of us really know what's going on because you haven't asked the guy a single question relating to his business status, registration details, level of qualification or PL insurance details.

Where abouts in the South East are you?

 

[telectrix]

these schemes are just a money making racket. anyone who has done a 5 week course on basic electrical work ( a proper qualified spark has taken 3-4- years ) can join niceic, nappit. elecsa with just some basic knowledge of house wiring ( and , of course a wad of moola to join. currently around £400 -£500/year.

 

[TrappedinTheWeb]

I have to say, after all of this, have you not just asked the fella??? We're doing all of this guess work and yet none of us really know what's going on because you haven't asked the guy a single question relating to his business status, registration details, level of qualification or PL insurance details.

Where abouts in the South East are you?

I was waiting to get to speak to him today. Which I have now done. I am sorry for the guess work, but I originally posted in order to get a better understanding and what sorts of questions to ask, and to undersrtand the answers, and implications of the situation ahead of the conversation. And I was far better able to have that discussion as a result so thank you to you and others who have contributed.

I did not state where I am more specifically as I am conscious that my understanding is poor and I don't want to do anything that might identify the person if I have unintentionally misrepresented things. Plus I am not sure that was important to the question I posted.

He has confirmed that he is not registered, or part of a scheme or body, though has qualifications. He has said membership of a competent person shceme is something he has been planning to/thinking about doing and he has offered to get an NIC inspection of the work, if we let him continue, as part of his membership app. So we are considering this and will decide whether to proceed on that basis with assurances on other points raised here e.g. insurance.

So again thanks to all for your valuable help and especially for the wealth of straightforward non-technical advice.

 

[shanky887614]

I was waiting to get to speak to him today. Which I have now done. I am sorry for the guess work, but I originally posted in order to get a better understanding and what sorts of questions to ask, and to undersrtand the answers, and implications of the situation ahead of the conversation. And I was far better able to have that discussion as a result so thank you to you and others who have contributed.

I did not state where I am more specifically as I am conscious that my understanding is poor and I don't want to do anything that might identify the person if I have unintentionally misrepresented things. Plus I am not sure that was important to the question I posted.

He has confirmed that he is not registered, or part of a scheme or body, though has qualifications. He has said membership of a competent person shceme is something he has been planning to/thinking about doing and he has offered to get an NIC inspection of the work, if we let him continue, as part of his membership app. So we are considering this and will decide whether to proceed on that basis with assurances on other points raised here e.g. insurance.

So again thanks to all for your valuable help and especially for the wealth of straightforward non-technical advice.

to become registered with a scheme like the niceic you need to show them work like this.

what will happen is the niceic will notify for you on completion to building control.

the anual fee to join a scheme is not much different to the cost bc charge for one visit

 

[telectrix]

I was waiting to get to speak to him today. Which I have now done. I am sorry for the guess work, but I originally posted in order to get a better understanding and what sorts of questions to ask, and to undersrtand the answers, and implications of the situation ahead of the conversation. And I was far better able to have that discussion as a result so thank you to you and others who have contributed.

I did not state where I am more specifically as I am conscious that my understanding is poor and I don't want to do anything that might identify the person if I have unintentionally misrepresented things. Plus I am not sure that was important to the question I posted.

He has confirmed that he is not registered, or part of a scheme or body, though has qualifications. He has said membership of a competent person shceme is something he has been planning to/thinking about doing and he has offered to get an NIC inspection of the work, if we let him continue, as part of his membership app. So we are considering this and will decide whether to proceed on that basis with assurances on other points raised here e.g. insurance.

So again thanks to all for your valuable help and especially for the wealth of straightforward non-technical advice.

this is fairly common practice as, if he wants to join a scheme and notify through them, he will need to let them assess 1 or 2 jobs. once he's been accepted, then he has 30 days to notify the work.

 

[danf1966]

This register does not show members who are registered with Stroma so does not include ALL registered members.

stroma are on this register