Full rcbo boards????

[Dave OCD]

So there must be hundreds of thousands of 13 amp plugs which don't comply then ?!

 

[davesparks]

So there must be hundreds of thousands of 13 amp plugs which don't comply then ?!

how many 13A plugs are there which form part of the fixed wiring and therefore come under the remit of bs7671?

 

[Dave OCD]

Regardless of which rules and regulations they fall under I'm talking about fine stranded flexible copper cable tightened with a screw terminal and without further 'treatment' , and with absolutely no ill effects.

 

[Ian1981]

I believe that regulation regards fine wire only.
It's upto the installer to be satisfied that the connection made is electrically sound and is suitable terminated.
If worried about crushing then use a torque screwdriver to manufacturers instructions

 

[davesparks]

Regardless of which rules and regulations they fall under I'm talking about fine stranded flexible copper cable tightened with a screw terminal and without further 'treatment' , and with absolutely no ill effects.

Yes there are a lot of fine stranded cables terminated in screw terminals with no ill effects, but there are also a lot which have failed as a result of it.
I find it hard to believe that you have never encountered a flexible conductor which has been damaged by the tightening of a screw terminal.

any plug fitted by a manufacturer or supplier of appliances will have ferrules used on the flex, all of the equipment which we get new with a fitted flex has ferrules on the end ready for connection.
The standards which apply to equipment building, panel building etc all require ferrules.

Should we all just stick our heads in the sand and resist simple changes which make things just a little bit better?

 

[Dave OCD]

In my opinion and experience fine stranded conductors when twisted tightly and even doubled can become much more rigid and tightening under a flat or rounded bottom terminal screw doesn't cause any significant damage.

 

[davesparks]

I believe that regulation regards fine wire only.
It's upto the installer to be satisfied that the connection made is electrically sound and is suitable terminated.
If worried about crushing then use a torque screwdriver to manufacturers instructions

And flex is a fine wire conductor.

Applying the correct torque won't prevent the fine strands of flex from being damaged, that's why the regulations require that ends be suitably treated

 

[westward10]

Direct on screw terminal will damage any conductor regardless of construction.

 

[Dave OCD]

Yes there are a lot of fine stranded cables terminated in screw terminals with no ill effects, but there are also a lot which have failed as a result of it.
I find it hard to believe that you have never encountered a flexible conductor which has been damaged by the tightening of a screw terminal.

any plug fitted by a manufacturer or supplier of appliances will have ferrules used on the flex, all of the equipment which we get new with a fitted flex has ferrules on the end ready for connection.
The standards which apply to equipment building, panel building etc all require ferrules.

Should we all just stick our heads in the sand and resist simple changes which make things just a little bit better?

No I'm all for changes which make things better Dave and actively try new products and methods but ferrules aren't always necessary and could be seen as another attempt to make something 'idiot proof'.

 

[Ian1981]

Take 1mm I double it up when terminating especially in db terminals mcb etc but take it out and it looks damaged regardless yet I'd say this is a fine wire that requires no specific treatment to it.
Most cases a doubled over flex is a better connection in my opinion.
I'm not convinced by that regulation perhaps connecting flex to copper say in a connection block then it may apply more id say.

 

[Dave OCD]

Someone is bound to be along at any moment to point out you're defining fine wire incorrectly Ian but I agree with you.

 

[Pete999]

how many 13A plugs are there which form part of the fixed wiring and therefore come under the remit of bs7671?

Beat me to it Dave

 

[Ian1981]

Someone is bound to be along at any moment to point out you're defining fine wire incorrectly Ian but I agree with you.

I won't loose any sleep if they do Dave

 

[davesparks]

Yes 1mm can be crushed quite easily, and there is an improvement to be made there too. I'm not aware of any simple fix for this other than paying a bit more attention to the correct tightening of the terminal screw.

Describing situations where this problem occurs but it cannot be fixed by ferrules doesn't in any way support the idea that ferrules are unnecessary, it just looks like pointless mud slinging.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I would suggest that the use of ferrules, depends on how frequently you would use them.
Someone who does the odd board with one or two RCBOs may not see the need, especially as compliance is easily achieved by the method I posted earlier.
Someone who builds lots of panels however may find the use of ferrules makes their work easier.
What makes me chuckle, is when people ask if your ferrule crimper is calibrated.

 

[Pat H]

Does anyone have any links to their fav ferrule crimping tool?

 

[Wilko]

Does anyone have any links to their fav ferrule crimping tool?

Hi Pat - I got one of these, it works fine but in truth I've not used it enough to really say.
Ferrule Kit - German Colour Scheme - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/DVDK2G.html

 

[hightower]

I've got same kit as Wilko, no complaints. Box it comes with large enough to put crimping tool and crimps too

 

[davesparks]

I would suggest that the use of ferrules, depends on how frequently you would use them.
Someone who does the odd board with one or two RCBOs may not see the need, especially as compliance is easily achieved by the method I posted earlier.
Someone who builds lots of panels however may find the use of ferrules makes their work easier.
What makes me chuckle, is when people ask if your ferrule crimper is calibrated.

For the sake of a couple of quid for a big bag of ferrules I can't see any argument against it.

Someone who builds panels will be working to a standard which requires their use.

 

[Midwest]

Hi Pat - I got one of these, it works fine but in truth I've not used it enough to really say.
Ferrule Kit - German Colour Scheme - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/DVDK2G.html

I thought that post was a pee take

 

[Wilko]

I thought that post was a pee take

Sorry if it sounded that way, it was not intended. I got it for an rcbo job a while back and not needed it since.

 

[Midwest]

Sorry if it sounded that way, it was not intended.

Nope didn't know boot lace ferrules had a crimper

 

[7029 dave]

Cut and ferrule for me every time.

Like to leave a little bit length still so the RCBO isn't completely useless if it does need to be moved a little in the future.

View attachment 36659

I bloody like that very neat.

 

[MrLights]

Cut and ferrule for me every time.

Like to leave a little bit length still so the RCBO isn't completely useless if it does need to be moved a little in the future.

View attachment 36659

Very neat and tidy! Well done! Nice to see you taking pride in your work. You cant be that busy though )

 

[onions1066]

Dave I respect your views and can see you have alot of knowledge but I very much doubt you can even work to the standards you preach. Regulations are worded in such a way which leaves the overall decision with the installer and I have to agree with spin London on this one.

 

[Bobster]

Just throwing it in.

Not only is the reason to treat the terminations of fine stranded conductors to save damage.

The main reason is the copper creeping. Admittedly not going to be an issue with small bits like an RCBO tail, but on higher loads it's going to rear its head.

 

[D00DY_T00DY]

Annnnnywhoo...
Rather than arguing about the big holy book of regulations.
I attempted another rcbo board(21 way ) with a different technique; connecting the rcbos then my circuits. Got some little cable ties ready to tackle this monster. Still no luck. After the 5th rcbo things got unruly.

Next attempt shall be a circuit at a time, then an rcbo. Either right to left or left to right.
Determined to get a spot on rcbo board. Practice practice practice

 

[onions1066]

Do you have to use the particular brand of board your are using?

 

[D00DY_T00DY]

Do you have to use the particular brand of board your are using?

I don't pick the boards, whatever our wholesalers have. Currently BG

 

[hightower]

I've only worked on Proteus and some old MEM when it comes to three-phase stuff, can't say I've been impressed with either. Proteus not enough room in the sides (where the neutral/earth bars are) so you've got to stick your RCBO neutral in to the bar before you even clip the RCBO in.

 

[onions1066]

Surely you can ask them to get any board in you like. Just because CEF stock RPP doesn't mean I would use it.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I've only worked on Proteus and some old MEM when it comes to three-phase stuff, can't say I've been impressed with either. Proteus not enough room in the sides (where the neutral/earth bars are) so you've got to stick your RCBO neutral in to the bar before you even clip the RCBO in.

proteus do a compact RCBO. 10A 1 Module SP 30mA Type B 6kA Compact RCBO | City Electrical Factors - http://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4126280-10a-1-module-sp-30ma-type-b-6ka-compact-rcbo

 

[hightower]

proteus do a compact RCBO. 10A 1 Module SP 30mA Type B 6kA Compact RCBO | City Electrical Factors - http://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4126280-10a-1-module-sp-30ma-type-b-6ka-compact-rcbo

It was customer supplied, not something I'd specify.

 

[D00DY_T00DY]

Surely you can ask them to get any board in you like. Just because CEF stock RPP doesn't mean I would use it.

I don't order materials. Still an apprentice bud haha

 

[Rpa07]

It helps that learning curve D00DY and just think, you wouldn't have anything to moan about otherwise and oh how we enjoy that! Great that you are getting the practice in though, apprenticeship working!

 

[D00DY_T00DY]

It helps that learning curve D00DY and just think, you wouldn't have anything to moan about otherwise and oh how we enjoy that! Great that you are getting the practice in though, apprenticeship working!

Oh don't worry. I'd find something to moan about. Like the Tories being ahead at the moment.

And I'm on board duties(which I love)

 

[Rpa07]

Agree on the board duties not the other - yay!

 

[D00DY_T00DY]

Agree on the board duties not the other - yay!

And I was just beginning to like you but you're on weak and wobbly May's side(I joke. I'm not against democracy )

Board duty's amazing. Testing not so much. Mainly because i don't do much of it so I'm not sure lol

 

[Andy C]

i can see the regs 526.9 applying in say DBs etc but how does it apply to lamp holder attachments to ceiling roses. Surely the flex doesn't need ferrules as well?

 

[telectrix]

i can see the regs 526.9 applying in say DBs etc but how does it apply to lamp holder attachments to ceiling roses. Surely the flex doesn't need ferrules as well?

made up pendants have ferrules on the flex.

business name idea.... Peninsular Electrical Services.
or..... Isthmus Installations.

 

[freddo]

We use the Curve boards from the local Denmans, cheap and cheerful, plenty of room to work etc. We used MK for a bit when the AM3 boards appeared but soon found they were useless. Faulty RCBOs, no terminals for bonding conductors, recalls and so on. If we do a CU change it will almost always be all RCBOs. All fine stranded conductors have ferrules fitted if we have to cut the factory fitted one off.

Part of remedial works after a T+I today included fitting ferrules to fine stranded conductors, it was shocking to see how few strands were connected on various RCBO tails, YY and SY flexes and tri rated singles that are used in a lot of the conduits. I must have fitted thousands of ferrules in the past few years. Makes a far superior connection IMO.

 

[davesparks]

i can see the regs 526.9 applying in say DBs etc but how does it apply to lamp holder attachments to ceiling roses. Surely the flex doesn't need ferrules as well?

Yes of course it does.

The vast majority of factory fitted flexes will have ferrules fitted to them, or be ultrasonically welded into a solid mass.

 

[Dave OCD]

We use the Curve boards from the local Denmans, cheap and cheerful, plenty of room to work etc. We used MK for a bit when the AM3 boards appeared but soon found they were useless. Faulty RCBOs, no terminals for bonding conductors, recalls and so on. If we do a CU change it will almost always be all RCBOs. All fine stranded conductors have ferrules fitted if we have to cut the factory fitted one off.
View attachment 37012

Part of remedial works after a T+I today included fitting ferrules to fine stranded conductors, it was shocking to see how few strands were connected on various RCBO tails, YY and SY flexes and tri rated singles that are used in a lot of the conduits. I must have fitted thousands of ferrules in the past few years. Makes a far superior connection IMO.
View attachment 37013 View attachment 37014

Very nicely done board Freddo.

 

[freddo]

Very nicely done board Freddo.

Thanks, I'm surprised no one has complained that the main earth conductor doesn't go through the tails gland with the l&n, I've never seen a good reason to, live conductors through the same hole yes. This was for a rewire of a property above a shop. TT earth, the DNO wouldn't provide a PME supply as they would have to disconnect the supply to the shop while changing the cutout, as their supply was looped through the flats cutout.

 

[Dave OCD]

I don't see an issue with that either Freddo although I'll do it if practical. Typical DNO, never want to make that extra little bit of effort, often during the working day I'll see certain vehicles 'hiding away'.

 

[freddo]

I'm sure the shop would have coped without power for 30 minutes, it's in an old town and I think the cash register was an old manual model, no fancy card payments there. We chatted to the shop owner most days, she used to live in the property we were rewiring.

To be fair to Western Power, most of the workmen are good guys, the difficult part is persuading their office staff to send them out!

 

[Davisonp]

Does anyone have any links to their fav ferrule crimping tool?

I use this after much research
KNIPEX 97 78 180 Crimping Pliers for end sleeves (ferrules) insulated with multi-component grips, VDE-tested 180 mm: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00FBPVL0M/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1