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Discuss Green Deal....Oh Dear! in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Training companies seem to have been the big winners, although I've been contacted by one recently stuggling to get takers for 100% funded courses. Keeping well away from it all.
 
people are waiting until 14th Jan as the cool off for siging is 14 days hence 28th kick off.

“Green Deal assessments are completed when they have been conducted in the property and the results are lodged on the Energy Performance Certificate register, through software developed specifically for occupancy assessments. While we understand a number of appointments for the in-property assessments have been made, no assessments have yet been lodged on the register.”


people will not lodge any as yet
 
I think the providers will have to advertise the scheme so the general public become aware of it
Forgot to mention the country is being swamped at the moment with External wall insulation from Eco funds the councils are all getting on board
 
IMG_5037.jpeg

We have twelve websites all feeding us Green Deal leads and recently got permission to put this sign on the front of a vacant shop in Bournemouth.

We get at least twelve leads a day, most for Green Deal for next year.

However we are managing to sell at least two systems a week of PV or thermal whilst having hundreds of local projects all tied up for next year.

You have to be in it to win it .....
 
I may be completely off the mark but the majority of the products you advertise, as i understand it, are not 100% funded so in the majority of cases an upfront cost would apply? Please correct me if i'm wrong. As an example I didn't think green deal would fund without upfront cost Solar PV, Heat Pumps, Solar Thermal, Windows or Doors not sure about the others. I thought all the ones I mentioned came with a amber light on the energy assessment?
 
Its all about the Golden Rule .

For instance take a look at this EPC https://www.epcregister.com/searchReport.html?RRN=0007-2818-7781-9222-3401

The solar PV is showing an install cost of between £9000 and £14000 for a 2.5kW system.

Most sensible sized companies can do a 4kW PV system for around £6000.

Therefore the orange tick becomes green.

Similar principle applies to all energy measures. Its about the install cost ratio to energy savings.
 
That's interesting and a good point but on a 45m2 bungalow where would you be able to put 4kwp? If you can't fit that on and it has to be maybe 2/2.5kwp so how does that pan out with those figures? Does RDSAP take into account location? I can't remember. Where does the £240 a year saving from a 2.5kwp system come from? Sorry for all the questions but it may help with the webchat with Barking later this morning :)
 
SAP is based on a Sheffield location.

I have no idea where the £240 figure was dreamed up from or why £9K to £14K for 2.5 kW PV system.... but I imagine it was a government clipboard carrier.

On that particular bungalow you could fit a South facing 2kW system for less than £4000 which under SAP would be ;-
8 x 250 x 0.8 x 1.073 x 1 = 1716 kWhrs So FIT would be at .16p £274.68 (16p for this example and excludes export bonus)
This systems feed in tariff finances not relevant to green deal.
This system should save 1716 hours at 0.13p import so £223 a year.

£4000 between £223 is 17 years so under the solar PV repayment time for green deal and therefore a big green tick

Most of our customers are 30% ahead of the SAP calculation but that maybe because of our South coast location.

This customer is already signed up so go find your own !! :wink:
 
Really interesting to see a real example of how it will work, although I doubt they will use 100% of what they generate but I guess if they can use half and the Fit pays for the funding, then apart from the potential inverter replacement, it's just about covered. In the North we've just about hit SAP this year because of the poor summer, but it does prove that it can be done. Out of interest how much more does the customer end up paying for the solar system and where does the cost of the admin, survey etc come into the funding equation?

Just used the loan repayment calculator on the Money Guardian website - came up with this, does this sound right??

mt# Balance Interest Principal Payment
1 4,200.00 24.50 8.06 32.56
2 4,191.93 24.45 8.11 32.56
3 4,183.83 24.41 8.16 32.56
4 4,175.67 24.36 8.19 32.56
5 4,167.47 24.31 8.25 32.56
6 4,159.21 24.26 8.30 32.56
7 4,150.91 24.21 8.35 32.56
8 4,142.56 24.16 8.40 32.56
9 4,134.17 24.12 8.44 32.56

236 160.00 0.93 31.63 32.56
237 128.37 0.75 31.81 32.56
238 96.56 0.56 32.00 32.56
239 64.56 0.38 32.19 32.56
240 32.36 0.19 32.36 32.56

Total Interest paid - £3,615.01
20 year loan @ 7%
 
Interesting - I just received an email from one of the DEA's we have used in the past explaining he is now a green deal assessor. He has given details of how the green deal works with solar pv and said:

'Solar PV is very interesting because the Green Deal will NOT pay for installation of PV panels at present prices because the electricity savings do not add up to the install price over the loan period (because Green Deal does not take into account the FiT) however it can PART FUND the PV installation'.

'For example if you were to charge a client £6000 for a PV system. Green Deal might fund £4000 of that so the customer just has to find £2000 UP FRONT then pay the rest off via the Green Deal but whilst still benefiting from the FiT payments.'

This is how I thought Green Deal would work with most renewable technologies and they would not be 100% funded.
 
MCS I have looked into getting solar pv under the green deal .

First of all the FITS is NOT included in the GREEN DEAL

so if the example system you gave produced 1716 kwh

so you have to go off fuel bill savings 1716 / 2 = 858 kwh per year

858 x 15p (top side per kilo watt paid)

£128.70 SAVED PER YEAR so the green deal loan repayment would have to be lower the £128.70 per year

so if you speard that cost over 25 years excluding the 7% intrest the price of the 2 kwp would be

£3,192.50 saving the client £1.00 over 25 years

forgive me if I am wrong it looks like you included fits in your calculations ??????????
 
My initial point was that advertising all these technologies with 'NO UPFRONT COST' was a little misleading. From the GD presentations I have been to renewables are an upfront cost component of the GD - an add on if you will. The GD that I have been presented is all about keeping energy down by keeping the heat in , renewables come 2nd with the upfront cost.
 
There are a lot of sceptics out there but the GD is here and here to stay this will work and you will all miss out if you don't do anything about it now!!! Then again it's till 2030
 
i think its going to be a messy start for first year things will need ironing out in second year but then it should be a stable , then again all the sales types are already taking about killing it
 
True, but like i said I have heard talk that it may be included for GD, not specifically to meet the golden rule. If the talk is true then it may make it attractive for homeowners if a proportion of the cost is paid for by GD (subject to financing terms), and they still get the FIT. Not as good as if the whole cost/installation met the golden rule but every little helps IMO
 
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I have a green deal round table meeting this Friday with Greg, I'll ask to see if there is any clarity on this

I hope he a) manages to make it on time and b) answers some answers an c) doesn't bring Otto with him!!!! Good luck, I'll look forward to hearing what he had to say :)
 
This is interesting i don't think the green deal will be everything we want it to be, i think we have gotta just give it chance as its a very bad time to set this in motion its Christmas!! & i don't think its got the publicity required yet look at where solar was a few years ago!!
 
True, but like i said I have heard talk that it may be included for GD, not specifically to meet the golden rule. If the talk is true then it may make it attractive for homeowners if a proportion of the cost is paid for by GD (subject to financing terms), and they still get the FIT. Not as good as if the whole cost/installation met the golden rule but every little helps IMO


Use of the feed in tariff has been discussed at steering group level.

Nobody on this thread has claimed that the FIT is included in green deal as my earlier post stated " feed in tariff not relevant to green deal".
 
Just ask DECC to produce a document that specifies exactly how the Green Deal, FiTs, and the RHI interoperate, for both domestic and non-domestic customers, based on the legislation that they have brought in.
 
Just ask DECC to produce a document that specifies exactly how the Green Deal, FiTs, and the RHI interoperate, for both domestic and non-domestic customers, based on the legislation that they have brought in.

If I was a betting man (which I am!) I can't see FiT's being included in Green Deal calcs. After all, the green deal is built around direct savings on your utility bills...if they allow FiT subsidy to be used in Golden Rule calcs they'd probably have to re-draft all the GD legislation.

They'll have to think of something to make Green Deal more attractive though...as it stands, it's simply a loan at commercial rates of interest....hardly revolutionary!

TMGL
 
Right guys just found out the green deal WILL include the FIT payments BUT you can't use the FIT payments in the calculation that is why it won't meet the golden rule so I'm sure they will change this nonsense
 
I think it's easier to say GD will NOT include FiT...but that the part financing of solar PV via GD will not affect your entitlement to receive FiT payments. I still can't work a GD that provides more than about 30 - 35% of capital cost;

South facing 4kWp

Annual - 3434 kWp

Saving - 3434*50%*0.12p = £206 saving per year

£206 per year will get you a GD loan of £2,200 over 20 years at 7% APR.

TMGL
 
I think GD is still gubbins and no doubt the goal posts will be moved again and again before any sort of launch.

But I have heard that optimists live longer, so I am taking the optamistic view that if the homeowner/business owner can still claim FITs with partial GD financing then it means that PV will be talked about in a more viable light by the GD spin.

Any sort of positive talk about PV is good in my book as it may respark some interest in those whos perception of PV has been damaged by FIT cuts, if GD doesn't work for them then they may be inclined to buy once they have realised the potential that a good installation can get them.
 
This is just another government con where as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer if you invest enough money if your rich you will get grants but poor old joe blogs only ever gets a loan that he has to pay back in full I think I would put the government in the oar less boat along with the Electrical Trainee'rs and send them all to the third world where they can see what being poor and half knowledgable means.
 
The calculation you used was with a FITS payment ! not a fuel bill saving unless I have read the post wrong?

Not sure if that's in response to my post...but if it is then, to confirm, I have assumed a cost of 12p per unit and 50% of the generation being used in-house. FiT's have been ignored (as they will be when calculcating your GD loan amount).
 
If, as dedicated followers of all things renewable, we can't get a grip of this what chance have we really got of the public taking this on board. Personally I am sitting on my hands at the moment. I've thrown enough money at this industry and don't intend to throw anymore at it until we have some kind of clarity and a sensible scheme. I've got other things I can do other than scrape around trying to sort this shambles out!!
 

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