GU10 Question

[Jamie Harris]

Hi,

Apologies if this isn't the correct place to ask this. I had some builders in who I asked to change my old 12v MR16 with transformers to 240v GU10 LED lamps which no longer needed the transformer.

I didn't think anything was wrong until I had an electrician come and take a look at a different issue who told me that every light had been wired wrong and that I would need fire proof, earthed GU10 fittings.
He subsequently quoted me quite a large fee per light and I just wanted to make sure it was necessary before going ahead with it.

Could someone, either with experience or professional knowledge, tell me what exactly is and isn't necessary.
Do I need to change out every single fitting for one that is earthed?
Do I need to buy a fire proof cage for every single bulb as well? (I don't even think there is enough headroom between the upstairs floor and downstairs ceiling to be able to fit the fire proof ones).


Thanks,
Jamie

 

[Midwest]

Hi Jamie.

1) Did your builders do the work, or did they employ an qualified electrician?

2) Could you be more specific, as to what the electrician said about the wiring of the luminaires your builders did? Whether the luminaires need earthing, would be dependant on what the manufacturers state on their instructions. Some luminaires can be manufactured as a Class 2 fitting or double insulated, and should not be earthed.

3) The last point will cause some discussion here. Some electricians who carry out domestic work (England & Wales), are registered with government approved schemes. Most of these schemes recommend that down lights installed, should be fire rated. A typical domestic property, is classed as one fire zone, and therefore does not actually require fire rated down lights. However, the plasterboard ceiling, especially in new build properties is a barrier against the spread of fire. Therefore Building Regs require any breach of such ceilings should be adequate repaired to reinstate the fire rating, for example cables going through one floor to another.

You might find this an interesting read;

Installing downlighters - http://www.----------------------------/electrical-professionals/installing-downlighters/

If you google 'Wiring Matters Installing Recessed Luminaires in Ceilings', they've produced a pdf on the subject.

You'll find most quality down lights are fire rated as well as a few other compliances with building regs. I would suggest fitting them in any case.

Back to your point, if your builders have install something inappropriate or incorrectly, you should speak to them first, to allow them to redress the matter.

 

[Wilko]

If the fitting needs an earth then it should have one. Often this is straightforward as the earth is taken to the fitting but not used previously and may just have been cut back.

If you don't mind me asking, what downlight was fitted?

 

[Jamie Harris]

If the fitting needs an earth then it should have one. Often this is straightforward as the earth is taken to the fitting but not used previously and may just have been cut back.

If you don't mind me asking, what downlight was fitted?

Thanks for your reply, an earth cable does exist, it's just that single (copper) wire that wasn't connected before and just folded back.

The downlights were all purchased from Costco and are made by Feit Electric.

Thanks

 

[Jamie Harris]

Hi Jamie.

1) Did your builders do the work, or did they employ an qualified electrician?

2) Could you be more specific, as to what the electrician said about the wiring of the luminaires your builders did? Whether the luminaires need earthing, would be dependant on what the manufacturers state on their instructions. Some luminaires can be manufactured as a Class 2 fitting or double insulated, and should not be earthed.

3) The last point will cause some discussion here. Some electricians who carry out domestic work (England & Wales), are registered with government approved schemes. Most of these schemes recommend that down lights installed, should be fire rated. A typical domestic property, is classed as one fire zone, and therefore does not actually require fire rated down lights. However, the plasterboard ceiling, especially in new build properties is a barrier against the spread of fire. Therefore Building Regs require any breach of such ceilings should be adequate repaired to reinstate the fire rating, for example cables going through one floor to another.

You might find this an interesting read;

Installing downlighters - http://www.----------------------------/electrical-professionals/installing-downlighters/

If you google 'Wiring Matters Installing Recessed Luminaires in Ceilings', they've produced a pdf on the subject.

You'll find most quality down lights are fire rated as well as a few other compliances with building regs. I would suggest fitting them in any case.

Back to your point, if your builders have install something inappropriate or incorrectly, you should speak to them first, to allow them to redress the matter.

Thanks for your response.

The electrician came over to fit sort out a dodgy socket and whilst doing some testing by the fuse box, told me that there was a problem with the breaker for the lights. He asked me to show him the wiring for one of the downlights and as soon as I took it down just immediately said what he said. I was just a little confused how he arrived at that conclusion so quickly.

Am I right in understanding that if both the bulb itself and the fitting are both class 2, then no earth is required? But that a fire rated "cage" is recommended regardless?

 

[westward10]

Where are they in your property and what type of dwelling is it, this could be a factor although generally fire rated fittings are not necessary. Can you post a pic of one taken down from the ceiling.

 

[Jamie Harris]

Where are they in your property and what type of dwelling is it, this could be a factor although generally fire rated fittings are not necessary. Can you post a pic of one taken down from the ceiling.

http://i.Upload the image directly to the thread.com/YE0Q1vs.jpg

It's a detached house and they're in the ceiling, above it is the attic.

Thanks

 

[westward10]

They don't need to be fire rated. I don't want you to worry too much but that is a shocking way to connect them, the fittings also look poor quality. When did the builder do this.

 

[Midwest]

That is a rather poor job. Those fittings are the cheap stuff that the DIY stores sell, sort of the equivalent 'essentials' stuff. Think I would be guided by your electrician, what is he suggesting/quoting?

 

[Leesparkykent]

Typical builder bodge....That wiring needs to be sorted out at least. What diameter are the holes in the ceiling?

 

[westward10]

The cost between fire rated fittings and non fire rated types is pretty slim so I would opt for the former as they are better quality. This is a job a DIYER could undertake depending on if you feel you are up to it, get some lighting connection boxes like the Hager J501 which should be less than £2 each.

 

[Midwest]

It's a detached house and they're in the ceiling, above it is the attic.

Your 'attic', is that a loft space or a room?

 

[Jamie Harris]

Your 'attic', is that a loft space or a room?

Just a cold room for storing old things, there's been no conversion ever done so it's literally just the space between the roof and the upstairs ceiling.

 

[andyb]

It's just poor workmanship Jamie.
They don't need to be fire rated or earthed, though the earth cable should be terminated correctly and the connections shouild be in an enclosure.
As already said they are cheap down but no need to change them really, if the other elecectrician told you they were class 1 fittings I would get another electrician to look at them.

 

[Jamie Harris]

They don't need to be fire rated. I don't want you to worry too much but that is a shocking way to connect them, the fittings also look poor quality. When did the builder do this.

That is a rather poor job. Those fittings are the cheap stuff that the DIY stores sell, sort of the equivalent 'essentials' stuff. Think I would be guided by your electrician, what is he suggesting/quoting?

Polish builders
It's been just a year since the install was done, when I saw the way that he had patched the other lights to one light I was pretty shocked as well.

New electrician is quoting about £15ish for each downlight that needs sorting, but like you said I think it's the way to go.

Thanks

 

[Midwest]

Just a cold room for storing old things, there's been no conversion ever done so it's literally just the space between the roof and the upstairs ceiling.

I was just thinking about loft insulation lying across the fitting, along with all the other stuff we have in our lofts?

 

[Jamie Harris]

Typical builder bodge....That wiring needs to be sorted out at least. What diameter are the holes in the ceiling?

65mm holes.

 

[Midwest]

Polish builders
It's been just a year since the install was done, when I saw the way that he had patched the other lights to one light I was pretty shocked as well.

New electrician is quoting about £15ish for each downlight that needs sorting, but like you said I think it's the way to go.

Thanks

Polish Builders doing electrics

£15 each supplied, installed & wiring rectified?

Edit : Did the electrician specify what down light he was supplying

 

[Leesparkykent]

A few of these
http://www.screwfix.com/p/debox-in-line-connector-box/8692h

and a little bit of this
http://www.screwfix.com/p/pvc-sleeving-3mm-x-100m-green-yellow/18132

Is all you need.

 

[andyb]

£15 is not a high price, quite the opposite.

 

[Jamie Harris]

Polish Builders doing electrics

£15 each supplied, installed & wiring rectified?

Don't think so, I think that was just their labour fee with a separate cost for rewiring and the fittings themselves.

 

[westward10]

A few of these
http://www.screwfix.com/p/debox-in-line-connector-box/8692h

and a little bit of this
http://www.screwfix.com/p/pvc-sleeving-3mm-x-100m-green-yellow/18132

Is all you need.

Please not choc boxes Lee.

 

[Midwest]

A few of these
http://www.screwfix.com/p/debox-in-line-connector-box/8692h

and a little bit of this
http://www.screwfix.com/p/pvc-sleeving-3mm-x-100m-green-yellow/18132

Is all you need.

Nah, something like this is all you need;

Hybrid9 - The Interchangeable Integrated LED Downlight | JCC Lighting - http://www.jcc.co.uk/hybrid9/

 

[Jamie Harris]

Whilst I'm not an electrician, I work in the AV industry so have a working understanding of a few basic things. Is anyone at all able to recommend a DIY style solution which I could do myself to aleast make the house a little safer?

Thanks,
Jamie

 

[Midwest]

As an aside Lee, don't suppose you have that recent link you posted about building regs & fire safety?

 

[Leesparkykent]

Please not choc boxes Lee.

lol they now do a debox 2 with MF connectors.........Its my weapon of choice

 

[Midwest]

Whilst I'm not an electrician, I work in the AV industry so have a working understanding of a few basic things. Is anyone at all able to recommend a DIY style solution which I could do myself to aleast make the house a little safer?

Thanks,
Jamie

Nope, get a suitably qualified competent electrician

PS; I would get that ceiling skimmed as well, for a proper finish.

 

[Leesparkykent]

As an aside Lee, don't suppose you have that recent link you posted about building regs & fire safety?

ill try find it now

 

[Midwest]

ill try find it now

Not trying to start an elongated discussion, but I was looking to quote it here, and would like to save it for future reference

 

[Jamie Harris]

Nope, get a suitably qualified competent electrician

PS; I would get that ceiling skimmed as well, for a proper finish.

Right, I'll do that instead then.

Thanks your all your help!

 

[Leesparkykent]

@westward10 just for you


Watch: Hylec DEBOX SL - http://professional-electrician.com/products/watch-hylec-debox-sl/

 

[westward10]

@westward10 just for you


Watch: Hylec DEBOX SL - http://professional-electrician.com/products/watch-hylec-debox-sl/

Jesus, I'm not one to judge people, yes I am and when I see choc boxes in the back of someone's van I want to torch it.

 

[Midwest]

Jesus, I'm not one to judge people, yes I am and when I see choc boxes in the back of someone's van I want to torch it.

What's your weapon of choice, junction boxes I mean

 

[westward10]

Something like Hager J501.

 

[Midwest]

Yep I've used them before. Just interested what other people use? I usually fit JCC or Click d/l, so don't have cause to use jb's that much for d/l.

 

[telectrix]

http://i.Upload the image directly to the thread.com/YE0Q1vs.jpg

It's a detached house and they're in the ceiling, above it is the attic.

Thanks

exactly what i'd expect from a builder/bathroom fitter/kitchen fitter. maximise profit by doing the job as cheap as possible as long as it works. those fittings would have come with an enclosed joint box. builder has discarded them to save time as they are quite fiddly to connect.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Not trying to start an elongated discussion, but I was looking to quote it here, and would like to save it for future reference

Was it this one mate?

https://www.downlights.co.uk/files/ESC-Fire-Rated-Downlights.pdf?334762691

 

[Midwest]

Was it this one mate?

https://www.downlights.co.uk/files/ESC-Fire-Rated-Downlights.pdf?334762691

Thanks

 

[Octopus]

All the Polish builders I have encountered, who are not working for UK firms have little or no respect for any of the UK building regs.

As for changing MR16 to GU10 lamps, you need to ensure that that earth (cpc) is continuous from the fuseboard to the last fitting.......

 

[Joshua]

A little off topic but most 'Polish' builders aren't even Polish and the ones I've met usually have better standards than most English builders, maybe I was just lucky though.

On topic,
I don't see any reason why they couldn't use choc boxes and get a better quality light fitting. Better still, just get LED lamps so there's little to no heat generated.