Have the rules for ring mains changed over the years?

[mainline]

We seem to have a knack in this country of having limited space for consumer units, and the luxury of 3 RCBOs for a kitchen may not be a given.
Of late, for living rooms and bedrooms I’ve been doing radials, and kitchens usually an rfc.
I don’t mind testing rings - there is something nice about confirming the connections are all good on the points that will regularly see the most current draw.

Bear in mind that the use of rcbos save at least 4 ways in a split load board.

 

[pc1966]

The discussion went to the number of sockets on a radial so thought it would add to the knowledge of those that don't know the standards in the EU.

I guess it helps with the greater debate around UK plugs & sockets: that the fused nature allows higher feed circuits (20A or 32A common, of course maybe 45A cooker) and in turn a much higher diversity of load sharing, compared to "rest of world" practice.

 

[rewireIT]

I guess it helps with the greater debate around UK plugs & sockets: that the fused nature allows higher feed circuits (20A or 32A common, of course maybe 45A cooker) and in turn a much higher diversity of load sharing, compared to "rest of world" practice.

I just think the rest of the world proves there's no need for them.

What are people plugging in in reality? Even in a kitchen how often are you gonna have a blender a toaster a kettle a water distiller or whatever all running simultaneously? And for how long? 20a 2.5mm radials do the job perfectly well for the rest of the house.

Even having a 20a radial in a living room, 5 sockets, TV, maybe DVD player (who even still has those?) couple of laptops, a phone, and maybe a lamp plugged in, what's the draw?

Unless electric heating's being plugged into multiple sockets on the same radial there's zero need for rings. Again, Europe/RoW proves it.

 

[pc1966]

I just think the rest of the world proves there's no need for them.

You might want to read over this before wading in:

Ring Final Circuit (RFC) versus Radial. Yes, again.

This is a topic that comes up a lot and seems to attract near-religious levels of fever in how folks argue over the choice of circuit for UK sockets. However, often the arguments are ill-informed or they veer off in to pointless corners, or sometimes get personal. This is my attempt to put a lot...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[rewireIT]

I don't know why my opinion offends you but ive read all the arguments for ring finals and Europe proves them straw clutchy at best.

I hold the same opinion as John Ward, I'm sure he's credentialed enough to hold the opinion that rings are stupid and pointless in most situations.

You might want to read over this before wading in:

Ring Final Circuit (RFC) versus Radial. Yes, again.

This is a topic that comes up a lot and seems to attract near-religious levels of fever in how folks argue over the choice of circuit for UK sockets. However, often the arguments are ill-informed or they veer off in to pointless corners, or sometimes get personal. This is my attempt to put a lot...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[pc1966]

I don't know why my opinion offends you but ive read all the arguments for ring finals and Europe proves them straw clutchy at best.

If I was to say "Driving on the left is stupid and pointless, Europe proves that" would you consider it a sound argument?

 

[davesparks]

I just think the rest of the world proves there's no need for them.

I agree there is no 'need' for them, in as far as agreeing that it is perfectly possible to have a functioning electrical installation without ring final circuits.

I don't agree with the idea that they should be banned, removed from the regulations or any such thing.

The ring final is a useful circuit which a skilled electrician or designer can use in an installation in combination with other circuits to achieve the best outcome.

If you personally don't want to install ring circuits for whatever reason then that's fine, but please let the rest of us get on with installing the types of circuit we deem best suited to a particular installation.

 

[rewireIT]

If I was to say "Driving on the left is stupid and pointless, Europe proves that" would you consider it a sound argument?

No because that is a stupid argument.

Europe not having rings despite their rules being made up by dozens of countries of expert bodies proves we don't need rings. End of story.

 

[littlespark]

Anyone else notice the OP hasn’t been back since #4?

There are so many ring v radial discussions on the forum…. Maybe they can be amalgamated?

My own thoughts… which were stated on one of the other threads, is that we, as professionals, chose the best solution for the design… whether that be ring or radial. We just have an extra choice.

The Uk was an isolated island when electricity in homes became commonplace. We went for rings as it was a copper saving measure at the time, and the current ways have evolved from that.

The rest of Europe is so close together that commonalities between neighbouring countries naturally occurred… then one day a lot of them decided to standardise amongst themselves….. and either they didn’t include the UK in discussions, or we refused.

It’s not “wrong” or “right”…. It’s just different.

A final word….. can we keep the discussions civil?
Just make like a refrigerator and chill….

 

[timhoward]

Bear in mind that the use of rcbos save at least 4 ways in a split load board.

Sure, what I actually had in mind was if there was only a 4 way rewireable Wylex there in the first place the space for a replacement can be limited (if of course the replacement occupies the same spot)

Even in a kitchen how often are you gonna have a blender a toaster a kettle a water distiller or whatever all running simultaneously? And for how long?

In a small house where the kitchen is the utility room, you might have a dishwasher, washing machine and tumble drier all on together for over an hour. Ironing the previous load while the next one is washing and drying. A cuppa, kippers on toast. It's not a given that a 20A circuit won't get a little warm!
I don't disagree that other designs work, and multiple radials is certainly possible, but it is a convenient and resilient circuit for variable loads.

Aside from their ability to 'just get on with' periods of heavy use, they are probably the circuit that it is easiest to prove is in an excellent condition and discover modifications via the extensive tests that are possible.

To clarify, I don't think anyone is saying that we can't possibly do without them. It's about whether there are benefits to choosing to use them.