Having a house re-wire, are old back boxes within new regs?

[Soultrader]

Hi,

Glad to have found a good forum to ask my electric related questions.

So my property had old vir cables nearly throughout and ceramic fuses. The company doing the rewire is 3/4 of the way through, but I have a few questions.

1. Are the original light switch back boxes still under current regulations, it seems they haven’t replaced any of the old light switch back boxes?

2. I understand that there must be 3 sockets in each room now, is this absolutely mandatory as they have left one out so far of one of the rooms? I can have them put this in if absolutely necessary.

3. I have asked that they provide the certifications before I pay in full but they have said that I need to pay first. What are the industry standards on this?

Thank you...

 

[Strima]

1. Are the original light switch back boxes still under current regulations, it seems they haven’t replaced any of the old light switch back boxes?

As long as they're not made of wood and are still fit for purpose then there's no regulatory problem. I would personally recommend deeper backboxes on a rewire as modern accessories, USB sockets/Smart Light switches etc, often require a deeper box.

2. I understand that there must be 3 sockets in each room now, is this absolutely mandatory as they have left one out so far of one of the rooms? I can have them put this in if absolutely necessary.

Depends on the size of the room.

Living room up to 12m2 4 sockets, 12-25m2 6 sockets and more than 25m2 8 sockets, these are double outlets.

Dining room 3, 4 or 5.

Single bedroom 2, 3 or 4.

Kitchen 6, 8 or 10.

These are listed in Guidance Note 1. Table C2.

This should be been discussed and agreed before works started. My rule of thumb for socket-outlets is think of how many you need and double it.

3. I have asked that they provide the certifications before I pay in full but they have said that I need to pay first. What are the industry standards on this?

On completion of the works an electrical installation certificate should be raised with the appropriate schedule of inspections and test results for each distribution board installed. The installation isn't classed as complete until this has been handed to the person ordering the works.

As for payment, this should have been agreed in writing between yourself and the contractor before works start. Traditionally it would be 1/3 upfront, 1/3 on completion of first fix and final 1/3 on completion of works, but this would have to be agreed.

 

[loz2754]

Hi and welcome to the forum.
My personal answer to your questions (as there is no other definitive answer unfortunately):

1. The back boxes for the lights. I would have expected there to have been a discussion on any possible reuse of original equipment. You should really have been given the opportunity to agree or disagree, before they went ahead.
As long as the boxes comply with current standards, which they may well do, they could be reused. It's possible that they're physically connected to the old metal conduit, and to remove them would create more work for the plasterer.

2. The number of sockets per room should have been agreed beforehand. The only guidance concerning this is just that - guidance. No absolute regulations.

3. Certificates issued on receipt of payment.
There are mixed views on this. Some would argue that the installation is not complete without the proper certification being issued, and there is some validity to this argument. Others would withhold certificates until payment is received, as a means of ensuring payment is fully and duly made. As it happens, my own company policy allows me to issue certificates only when I have been paid in full. In practice, however, I have not had to enforce this policy as I have usually been able to build a sufficient rapport and trust with my clients.

I hope this helps, but I don't believe you will get the firm fixed answers you're looking for.

 

[LukeD]

I cannot see back boxes been a issue ?
If its your house, not going to a student rental type set up and the fact its not a new built there should be no requirement to have x amount etc ?

As for certs .They are not a EXTRA in a job. They are part of the job/works etc . Payment is due on completion but possibly subject to any terms you agreed to etc

 

[timhoward]

Hi and welcome

1. Are the original light switch back boxes still under current regulations, it seems they haven’t replaced any of the old light switch back boxes?

As long as they metal and not corroded and are functional there is no compelling reason to replace them, in fact replacing them usually causes a fair bit of collateral damage. So no big concern. Sometimes larger ones are needed these days for e.g. dimmer switches. and ideally this would have been a conversation before they started.

2. I understand that there must be 3 sockets in each room now

Neither BS7671 or building regs has hard and fast rules on this, there is a guidance document but this can be departed from, you are the customer!

3. I have asked that they provide the certifications before I pay in full but they have said that I need to pay first. What are the industry standards on this?

I'm afraid there is no consistent standard, plenty do it both ways.

 

[WallaceP]

No issues with keeping the old boxes for lights, as for number of sockets its your house get however many you desire. For certification I usually expect payment in full before this is sent over.

 

[DefyG]

As previously said,
The boxes (assume not old wooden ones), need to be deep enough to accommodate accessories used today, eg. dimmers, flat plate, incorporating USB etc.

There is guidance on number of sockets (1double = 2 outlets according to the guidance) but as said not mandatory.

As for certification, there has to be mutual trust; I know where contractors have been 'stitched up' when handing over certificate and then not receiving final payment but also 'rogue' contractors not forwarding certificates (If done at all?) once final payment received.

 

[brianmoooore]

If the boxes are as old as the VIR, then the screws that go with them are probably imperial. Screws that fit can be obtained, but they won't be the ones that come with the fittings.
If the light switch boxes have plastic inserts for the screws, the plastic will be brittle, and likely cause problems when the new fittings are screwed back.

 

[timhoward]

Just to add for the OP's benefit it would be 4BA screws needed. That said it would probably be the sparks issue to solve not his.
Sometimes an M3.5 re-tapping tool leaves enough bite for modern screws, seems to depend on how close to the maximum tolerance the 4BA was tapped.

 

[Soultrader]

Thank you for the responses.

There was no communication regarding some of the finer details. As it’s my first rewire I would not have known to ask.

There was a serious communication error their end between the person who estimated the job and the person who drew up the quote, resulting in a quote much lower than they would usually charge, and then they consequently said they wouldn’t be coming to do the job because of this.

I understand that mistakes do happen so I asked that they still come the next day, as arranged, and the owner call me to discuss the price. He gave me obviously a new higher quote but he was being very fair and reasonable with the quote and I didn’t argue it. At the end of the day I run a small business and mistakes happen, it’s how these things are dealt with that’s important to me.

I am going to suggest that I go to their premises and pay them when I see the certificates, this seems like a reasonable suggestion to me.

I’m hoping to renovate more properties in the coming years as I think I’m enjoying it so we’ll see how it goes.

 

[brianmoooore]

Just to add for the OP's benefit it would be 4BA screws needed. That said it would probably be the sparks issue to solve not his.
Sometimes an M3.5 re-tapping tool leaves enough bite for modern screws, seems to depend on how close to the maximum tolerance the 4BA was tapped.

Or they might just nip the 3.5mm screws up just enough to hold the plates in place until the bill is paid.

 

[i=p/u]

Some very good detailed awnsers, Hopefully all good in end.

I would want.new back boxes, If its getting plastered anyway.

 

[Soultrader]

Some very good detailed awnsers, Hopefully all good in end.

I would want.new back boxes, If its getting plastered anyway.

Yeah all being skim plastered. Next time I’ll make sure it all gets new. I suppose they have to come and rectify any issues that may arise, although as I’m hoping to sell in the next 2 months I hope that can be avoided.

 

[Spoon]

Welcome to the forum mate.
Changing a consumer unit falls under Part P and is notifiable work.
Are they notifying your local building control body?

 

[Soultrader]

Welcome to the forum mate.
Changing a consumer unit falls under Part P and is notifiable work.
Are they notifying your local building control body?

They should be. I’m not going to pay until I see the building control and installation certificate. I will go to their premises and when I see them I will pay. I think that’s entirely reasonable.

 

[Spoon]

They should be. I’m not going to pay until I see the building control and installation certificate. I will go to their premises and when I see them I will pay. I think that’s entirely reasonable.

Have you given them any money up to now?

 

[Soultrader]

Have you given them any money up to now?

No. I haven’t been asked at any point.

 

[Spoon]

No. I haven’t been asked at any point.

Ask them that you want to pay them some money for the work they have done up to now. It shows them that you are not trying to dupe them and you can also see their premises when you pay.
They may then be flexible on giving you the certs before final payment.

 

[telectrix]

They should be. I’m not going to pay until I see the building control and installation certificate. I will go to their premises and when I see them I will pay. I think that’s entirely reasonable.

it will take maybe 28 days to get the building control notification processed, so you should not withold monies awaiting this, unless it's asmall % , say 10%, agreed with the contractors beforehand.
as for back boxes, I would insist on new ones (25mm) for switches, otherwise if you want at any time to fit smart switches or dimmers, you're stuffed.

 

[Soultrader]

it will take maybe 28 days to get the building control notification processed, so you should not withold monies awaiting this, unless it's asmall % , say 10%, agreed with the contractors beforehand.
as for back boxes, I would insist on new ones (25mm) for switches, otherwise if you want at any time to fit smart switches or dimmers, you're stuffed.

Thanks.
However as stated by numerous people here some companies do provide all certificates before payment and the installation certificate is at least on the quote. We did have a brief conversation about it and he said something about paying half and getting one of the certificates then the other half before receive the final certificate which I now assume is building control. For me I’m not sure 10% is enough of an incentive and having look on companies house last night I am right to be somewhat careful here. I think paying 3/4 of the invoice should be satisfactory and then paying the remainder when I see the certificate.

 

[westward10]

Do the existing back boxes have earth terminals because if you have plastic light switches they will need them.

 

[Soultrader]

Do the existing back boxes have earth terminals because if you have plastic light switches they will need them.

No they don’t have an earth terminal. Is it a part of regulations that they must have them?

 

[westward10]

No they don’t have an earth terminal. Is it a part of regulations that they must have them?

Are you using plastic light switches because if you are the cpc terminates to the back box but for metal switches it terminates to the switch itself.

 

[Soultrader]

Are you using plastic light switches because if you are the cpc terminates to the back box but for metal switches it terminates to the switch itself.

Just standard white light switches. I can see they have put earths into a loose choc box terminal in the backbox

 

[telectrix]

Just standard white light switches. I can see they have put earths into a loose choc box terminal in the backbox

NOT GOOD. THOSE EARTHS NEED TO BE CONNECTED TO THE METAL BOXES.

 

[Soultrader]

NOT GOOD. THOSE EARTHS NEED TO BE CONNECTED TO THE METAL BOXES.

I don’t think those old boxes are metal though, I’m sure they’re plastic.

Do they have to be replaced with metal ones according to current regulations?

 

[SJD]

Do you have a photo of one of these old boxes?

 

[brianmoooore]

NOT GOOD. THOSE EARTHS NEED TO BE CONNECTED TO THE METAL BOXES.

I purposely didn't mention earthing terminals in my first post on this thread, to see if any one else picked it up.
A few weeks ago, I would have agreed fully with the quote above, but since then we've had the 'where can I get plastic 3.5mm screws' thread, which came to the conclusion that it's permitted to use metal screws with unearthed metal back boxes.
It's definitely OK to use unearthed metal boxes with earthed metal plate switches, as long as at least one of the box's lugs is non adjustable, since it's no longer considered necessary (not on my watch, though) to omit the fly lead between a socket and its box, so, taking the two examples together, the cpc must be present in the switch box, but, with a plastic switch, does it need to be connected to anything?

 

[brianmoooore]

I don’t think those old boxes are metal though, I’m sure they’re plastic.

Do they have to be replaced with metal ones according to current regulations?

These aren't going to turn out to be surface boxes, are they?

 

[DefyG]

it will take maybe 28 days to get the building control notification processed

It can be available 'instantly' if notified on the NICEIC website (and maybe other schemes too), are the contractors NIC approved? If so no excuse a delay in the Part P cert, which cant be notified (online) until the EIC is finalised (online), but with technology today can be done in a blink of any eye!

 

[Soultrader]

I purposely didn't mention earthing terminals in my first post on this thread, to see if any one else picked it up.
A few weeks ago, I would have agreed fully with the quote above, but since then we've had the 'where can I get plastic 3.5mm screws' thread, which came to the conclusion that it's permitted to use metal screws with unearthed metal back boxes.
It's definitely OK to use unearthed metal boxes with earthed metal plate switches, as long as at least one of the box's lugs is non adjustable, since it's no longer considered necessary (not on my watch, though) to omit the fly lead between a socket and its box, so, taking the two examples together, the cpc must be present in the switch box, but, with a plastic switch, does it need to be connected to anything?

I spoke to a family member who is an electrician and according to their view using old plastic back boxes without an earth falls within regs.
I understand your comment is about metal back boxes however I am attempting to get a definitive answer on this scenario where the backbox is plastic, metal screws, standard white switches, loose earth terminal in backbox.

 

[Soultrader]

These aren't going to turn out to be surface boxes, are they?

No.

 

[Soultrader]

It can be available 'instantly' if notified on the NICEIC website (and maybe other schemes too), are the contractors NIC approved? If so no excuse a delay in the Part P cert, which cant be notified (online) until the EIC is finalised (online), but with technology today can be done in a blink of any eye!

Yes they are nic approved. Thank you for that.

 

[Strima]

I spoke to a family member who is an electrician and according to their view using old plastic back boxes without an earth falls within regs.
I understand your comment is about metal back boxes however I am attempting to get a definitive answer on this scenario where the backbox is plastic, metal screws, standard white switches, loose earth terminal in backbox.

If the box is plastic and the switch is plastic then the earth should be terminated into a block/Wago for future use if required.

As the whole lot is plastic and non-conductive the screws can be metal with no risk.

 

[Soultrader]

If the box is plastic and the switch is plastic then the earth should be terminated into a block/Wago for future use if required.

As the whole lot is plastic and non-conductive the screws can be metal with no risk.

Thank you

 

[Soultrader]

If the box is plastic and the switch is plastic then the earth should be terminated into a block/Wago for future use if required.

As the whole lot is plastic and non-conductive the screws can be metal with no risk.

I thought the back boxes were plastic but in fact they are metal but where the screws/bolts go it’s plastic.
Does this change anything?

 

[brianmoooore]

Plastic insert type and shallow. Get rid.

 

[westward10]

The fixing points look shot.

 

[LukeD]

The fixing points look shot.

This 100% .

 

[littlespark]

The sparks will find, after first fix and everything plastered and decorated.... the screws for the accessories won’t grip those old plastic inserts.

Get them changed.