Part P training . It must be stopped

[Dave Rudderham]

I don't think recognised apprenticeships should be the only way to become an electrician. Those of us who didn't get the opportunity of an electrical apprenticeship when younger and who are retraining in later life would never be classed as an electrician under your idea regardless of how experienced we are.

An end to 5 week (or less) courses, I do agree. I'm currently 3 months into a Level 3 Electrical Installation course, because of previous experience, I've completed all the years practical assessments in those 3 months, that includes assisting other students and helping the technician sort out the store room. I'm also that far ahead of the other students theory wise through previous experience that I am being allowed to pick my own exam dates and am more or less exempt from attending the theory classes.
I believe that the absolute minimum should be a Level 2 and 3 certificate from a college, there is nothing wrong with domestic installer certification under these circumstances. It's what I'm looking at eventually. What there could be is a provision that the certification scheme insist on several assessment throughout the first 12 months to verify your competence rather than a single one and "see you next year" I know I would have no objection to that.

The main reason I frequent these forums and facebook groups is to gain information the text books and my own experience does not possess.

 

[Capra]

There are 3 types of people who go on the 5 week DI courses.
1. People with Zero Experience that think they'll become a spark and make a ton of money.
2. People from an allied trade that want to be able notify eg.. Gas fitter, Builder
3. People with plenty of electrical installation experience that did not do an NVQ./ Apprenticeship.

Unfortunately, it's the folk from group 1 who are getting rinsed. They will leave their 5 week course and will not be employable, let alone be able to set up their own business. Why?? Because the only practical work they will do is wire up a CU, several sockets, battern lamps and a cooker point - then carry out Initial Verification (and get results that won't raise any questions) - all on a "pod" wall measuring 1 square meter.
What they won't do, is use any power tools, lift floorboards, drill joists or run cable etc... So they won't have a clue.
This is where these companies are being naughty - and really letting themselves down.

Now, for people from groups 2 and 3 - they're good. I know - because I used one of these companies. (I'm not going to say which one, nor am I going into my personal history - but I'm competent in what I do) The instructors were all time served qualified electricians. They had genuinely had the students success (and safety) at heart. One of my instructors admitted that he shared my concern over his employers selling these courses to people that haven't even wired up a plug in their life, or used a power tool. (That is actually a real example from my course)

These courses DO teach you well from a regulatory point of view - but without bonding that to practical experience - most successful students won't be any good in the real world - obviously.

So anyway - please don't tar PartP installers with the same brush - I've been house bashing for years, I know what I'm doing - I know my limitations - and I still ask questions. I know and work with plenty of time served sparks.

I did the Part P course so that, along with my practical experience, I could prove my competency, sign off my own work and of course: make more money. I make no apology for that.
I don't have time, or the desire to do a full NVQ at my age and I only intend to work on Domestic under my banner. The DI is the obvious route.

If some people are abusing it - that's a shame.

 

[bailes1992]

I'm a qualified electrician who completed a 4 year apprenticeship and went on to do a HNC in Building Services Engineering. I'm also a very competent tester, but have yet to do my inspection and testing.
My Father is a qualified electrician who did an appreticeship and also has his inspection and testing.

We both work for industrial/commercial electrical companies. We are both project managers and not on the tools.


Next year I'll be turning the garage of my new house into a workshop, this includes installing a larger supply.

My Father is building a new garage at my parents house. Again, this involves installing a larger supply.

By all accounts both my Father and myself will have to pay to get planning permission for the works, do the job ourselves and pay somebody who could quite easily be less qualified to sign the work off!

It's utter lunacy.

 

[Pete999]

They

I'm a qualified electrician who completed a 4 year apprenticeship and went on to do a HNC in Building Services Engineering. I'm also a very competent tester, but have yet to do my inspection and testing.
My Father is a qualified electrician who did an appreticeship and also has his inspection and testing.

We both work for industrial/commercial electrical companies. We are both project managers and not on the tools.


Next year I'll be turning the garage of my new house into a workshop, this includes installing a larger supply.

My Father is building a new garage at my parents house. Again, this involves installing a larger supply.

By all accounts both my Father and myself will have to pay to get planning permission for the works, do the job ourselves and pay somebody who could quite easily be less qualified to sign the work off!

It's utter lunacy.

May be more experienced than you or your Dad though bailes 1992, qualifications aren't the B all and end all.

 

[Toneyz]

Not without some sort of 'electrical' qualification. The 2393 is an informative course, and doesn't qualify the student in anything.

Well done Midwest summed it up totally.

 

[bailes1992]

They Maybe more experienced than you or your Dad though bailes 1992, qualifications aren't the B all and end all.

I completely agree.

My Father was on the tools from when he left school up until his 40's. Me however, I was only on the tools for 6 years, 4 of those as an apprentice.


But equally the person signing off our work could do a fast track 5 week course to become an 'electrcian', followed by their inspection & testing and Part P and in the eyes of the law would be able to sign off our work while we can't.

 

[Pete999]

I completely agree.

My Father was on the tools from when he left school up until his 40's. Me however, I was only on the tools for 6 years, 4 of those as an apprentice.


But equally the person signing off our work could do a fast track 5 week course to become an 'electrcian', followed by their inspection & testing and Part P and in the eyes of the law would be able to sign off our work while we can't.

You could if you joined one of the CP Schemes!

 

[Midwest]

I'm a qualified electrician who completed a 4 year apprenticeship and went on to do a HNC in Building Services Engineering. I'm also a very competent tester, but have yet to do my inspection and testing.
My Father is a qualified electrician who did an appreticeship and also has his inspection and testing.

We both work for industrial/commercial electrical companies. We are both project managers and not on the tools.


Next year I'll be turning the garage of my new house into a workshop, this includes installing a larger supply.

My Father is building a new garage at my parents house. Again, this involves installing a larger supply.

By all accounts both my Father and myself will have to pay to get planning permission for the works, do the job ourselves and pay somebody who could quite easily be less qualified to sign the work off!

It's utter lunacy.

As some have suggested here before, you could approach your LBC, inform them of your plans, convince them of your competency and your fathers qualifications as an electrician. They may well be very happy to receive notification of the work by yourselves, and issue you with a compliance certificate.

Part P building regs requires electrical work in domestic properties to comply with relevant standards. The relevant UK standard is BS 7671. If you can design, install, inspect & test to that standard, I can't see they can decline.

 

[Midwest]

I completely agree.

My Father was on the tools from when he left school up until his 40's. Me however, I was only on the tools for 6 years, 4 of those as an apprentice.


But equally the person signing off our work could do a fast track 5 week course to become an 'electrcian', followed by their inspection & testing and Part P and in the eyes of the law would be able to sign off our work while we can't.

Think you need to drop that particular bit?

 

[WillWX]

I’d guess (and I maybe wrong) that the majority of fully qualified electricians will agree with this poll as they did it their way and see a domestic installer as inferior to them and possibly clueless.

But what some people may forget, there are a number of “fully qualified” electricians out there who are quite happy to bang their next inspection sticker on a consumer unit, yet still do a s*it job.

I appreciate there will be short course clowns out there who do abuse it (how long will they honestly last??), but what I would like to think is true, is that a lot of domestic installers out there really appreciate the position their in and do their best to continually learn and do a proper job.

I’ve said it before, I’m nowhere near as qualified as anyone on here, I worked with an electrician doing an apprenticeship but never got put through college for reasons I won’t bore you with, but I worked my --- off to learn everything, I listened hard and read hard and because of that I’m competent.

I have my first NICEIC inspection on the 2nd of January, I can’t wait and I’m thankful for the position I’m in and that the system allowed me to be where I am

 

[Sprinter]

Hi all.
Like many others I’m looking at retraining to become a domestic installer and have visited every website going offering amazing 15 day courses.
My background is as a data engineer and have been for over 20 years, working alongside and with the electrical trade. I’m quite familiar with house bashing, running cables, containment etc. I’m also quite competent with electrics having re wired 2 houses plus did a major refurbished to part of the office where I worked previously ( all checked and signed off afterwards) have also been pat testing on and off for the past 18 months.

I do see one of these courses right for me with my background and while I don’t think I would come out knowing everything I’d like to think that the knowledge gained would ensure that what I was doing was safe and comply with regs.

Being in my late 30’s with a mortgage, kids and bills. Taking a long apprenticeship or college course just isn’t possible so don’t really see an alternative to this style of training.

I’m not looking to pass and then drop what I’m doing with data. But move into the trade gradually around my current work.

 

[Des 56]

Hi all.
having re wired 2 houses plus did a major refurbished to part of the office where I worked previously ( all checked and signed off afterwards) have also been pat testing on and off for the past 18 months.

Sprinter,I was getting impressed until you threw that bombshell

Just imagine what extra progress you would have made if that wasted 18 months had been put to good use doing something even remotely related to electrical safety

 

[telectrix]

I'm a qualified electrician who completed a 4 year apprenticeship and went on to do a HNC in Building Services Engineering. I'm also a very competent tester, but have yet to do my inspection and testing.
My Father is a qualified electrician who did an appreticeship and also has his inspection and testing.

We both work for industrial/commercial electrical companies. We are both project managers and not on the tools.


Next year I'll be turning the garage of my new house into a workshop, this includes installing a larger supply.

My Father is building a new garage at my parents house. Again, this involves installing a larger supply.

By all accounts both my Father and myself will have to pay to get planning permission for the works, do the job ourselves and pay somebody who could quite easily be less qualified to sign the work off!

It's utter lunacy.

just get on with it. the part pee gestapo will not be knocking on your door. far better things to do, like pursuing misuse of cps logos.

 

[Dave Rudderham]

Hi all.
Like many others I’m looking at retraining to become a domestic installer and have visited every website going offering amazing 15 day courses.
My background is as a data engineer and have been for over 20 years, working alongside and with the electrical trade. I’m quite familiar with house bashing, running cables, containment etc. I’m also quite competent with electrics having re wired 2 houses plus did a major refurbished to part of the office where I worked previously ( all checked and signed off afterwards) have also been pat testing on and off for the past 18 months.

I do see one of these courses right for me with my background and while I don’t think I would come out knowing everything I’d like to think that the knowledge gained would ensure that what I was doing was safe and comply with regs.

Being in my late 30’s with a mortgage, kids and bills. Taking a long apprenticeship or college course just isn’t possible so don’t really see an alternative to this style of training.

I’m not looking to pass and then drop what I’m doing with data. But move into the trade gradually around my current work.

I'm very late 30s and have rent, kids and bills etc. I decided on the college route as regardless of my own practical knowledge (similar to yourself, telecoms and a bit of spark on the side, the regs have changed quite a bit.
I also spoke to a couple of DIW providers and I wasn't impressed which what I heard. They were more interested in signing me up to a loan than the actual course.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I had the Niceic assessor visit and we got round to discussing qualifications experience etc, so i pull out a pile of certificates such as 2394, 2392, 17th edition etc.. beyond the 17th edition and a testing qualification they actually do not require anything else, you do not need the 'part p qualification' - you simply need to have a copy of the part p document. they say they like to see part p qualifications though as it shows you at least have studied and understand some degree of the regs.
The minimum they will take is 17th edition, 2392 testing and then you can sit a multi choice online knowledge test at home with your books for reference, that apparently covers a lot of the same questions as the 2394. then with a job or two to inspect you are in subject to the correct paperwork being in place such as insurance, policies etc..
The assessor said they know some people are not fully upto the job and they do actually fail quite a few these days, its just you never hear about them! people rarely admit to failing. the assessor i had failed somebody a few backs as he said they were to inexperienced at 21 years old who had the basic entry qualifications from one of these Electrical Trainee sheds but had little real experience and struggled with some of the basic questions about Ze, Zs and rcd times... he has suggested the guy looks for work as an electricians mate or labourer and do the 2365 at college. likewise they are keen to support people in to the trade and ensure they work within their limits. its a fine balance, they take the view on the assessors committee that its better to supervise the inexperienced than they be left to their own devices.
part p is not going to go away and if anything more stuff will become notifiable reversing some of the changes in 2013. it comes down to people recognising that they will always need to learn and develop skills and only they know their abilities.

 

[Pete999]

I had the Niceic assessor visit and we got round to discussing qualifications experience etc, so i pull out a pile of certificates such as 2394, 2392, 17th edition etc.. beyond the 17th edition and a testing qualification they actually do not require anything else, you do not need the 'part p qualification' - you simply need to have a copy of the part p document. they say they like to see part p qualifications though as it shows you at least have studied and understand some degree of the regs.
The minimum they will take is 17th edition, 2392 testing and then you can sit a multi choice online knowledge test at home with your books for reference, that apparently covers a lot of the same questions as the 2394. then with a job or two to inspect you are in subject to the correct paperwork being in place such as insurance, policies etc..
The assessor said they know some people are not fully upto the job and they do actually fail quite a few these days, its just you never hear about them! people rarely admit to failing. the assessor i had failed somebody a few backs as he said they were to inexperienced at 21 years old who had the basic entry qualifications from one of these Electrical Trainee sheds but had little real experience and struggled with some of the basic questions about Ze, Zs and rcd times... he has suggested the guy looks for work as an electricians mate or labourer and do the 2365 at college. likewise they are keen to support people in to the trade and ensure they work within their limits. its a fine balance, they take the view on the assessors committee that its better to supervise the inexperienced than they be left to their own devices.
part p is not going to go away and if anything more stuff will become notifiable reversing some of the changes in 2013. it comes down to people recognising that they will always need to learn and develop skills and only they know their abilities.

Just goes to show how thorough the scams are in accepting people in, mind you the cash incentive is the kicker. So if you can verify and test an installation and read a book you're in, laughable really when you analyze it, isn't it, what happened to experience? Still if they are subsidizing the trainers it's to be expected.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Just goes to show how thorough the scams are in accepting people in, mind you the cash incentive is the kicker. So if you can verify and test an installation and read a book you're in, laughable really when you analyze it, isn't it, what happened to experience?

I asked him that very question which is why he mentioned the young guy they didnt let in, they have to form a judgement on the day i guess. I have always said experience is worth more than any piece of paper or book. I never did it the formal way after leaving the forces and built up skills and experience over time, moving up through basic testing to 2394 etc so never did the nvq and jib card. There is no perfect route but experience should be required to join, they do not audit the min of 2 years electrical experience route on the schemes, they take your word for it. they should at least seek reputable references like when you apply for a job.

 

[Pete999]

I asked him that very question which is why he mentioned the young guy they didnt let in, they have to form a judgement on the day i guess. I have always said experience is worth more than any piece of paper or book. I never did it the formal way after leaving the forces and built up skills and experience over time, moving up through basic testing to 2394 etc so never did the nvq and jib card. There is no perfect route but experience should be required to join, they do not audit the min of 2 years electrical experience route on the schemes, they take your word for it. they should at least seek reputable references like when you apply for a job.

Gavin, It wasn't my intention to have a dig at anyone taking the short course route to becoming a DI or Electrician, in fact as I have stated in other posts we have some fine trades persons on this forum who have taken this route, having spoken to people and read several post, does it not raise the question, that these assessors are given instructions, or advice on who to accept, I have no evidence of this and it' s purely my impression, off the patch for a bit I had the DNO visiting today regarding smart meters and I asked him what training he had received, 3 months Gas related and 2 days Electrically related, and he worked in a shop selling shoes, boggles the mind, or it does mine. Oh and as an aside he did say the Gas training was more intensive, well 3 months against 2 days you would expect that response, wouldn't you??????

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Gavin, It wasn't my intention to have a dig at anyone taking the short course route to becoming a DI or Electrician, in fact as I have stated in other posts we have some fine trades persons on this forum who have taken this route, having spoken to people and read several post, does it not raise the question, that these assessors are given instructions, or advice on who to accept, I have no evidence of this and it' s purely my impression, off the patch for a bit I had the DNO visiting today regarding smart meters and I asked him what training he had received, 3 months Gas related and 2 days Electrically related, and he worked in a shop selling shoes, boggles the mind, or it does mine.

I bet the meter fitter if he hits targets is on a lot more than many on this forum aswell with a lot less qualifications.... I saw a job advert recently advertising for meter fitters, no experience needed full training given, just a clean dbs check and a driving licence. starting salary 21.5k... with pay rise after 1 year to i think was 24k with bonuses and overtime on top! have to admit i was tempted to sign up...

 

[Pete999]

I bet the meter fitter if he hits targets is on a lot more than many on this forum aswell with a lot less qualifications.... I saw a job advert recently advertising for meter fitters, no experience needed full training given, just a clean dbs check and a driving licence. starting salary 21.5k... with pay rise after 1 year to i think was 24k with bonuses and overtime on top! have to admit i was tempted to sign up...

This bloke was about 30 on £32K per year there was no target as such but 4 installs per day was the expected average, this was Gaz and Leccy installs.