PAT testing fixed appliances?

Discuss PAT testing fixed appliances? in the Electrical Testing & PAT Testing Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

BB I tend to agree this lecturer feeds into to a consultation group but I think they all do up here in Scotland remember we never got involved with Part p or the mad rush to certify people after 5 weeks Most of the sparks I know served their time and are registered with the SJIB plus the majority of training up here is been done by the technical colleges although Select and NICEIC are getting into the act but to be honest Select were charging £220 for a 1 day 2377 PAT course where the college are charging £190.00p for a 6 week nightclass C&G course and people who are doing it for themselves use this way where companies send their guys to the Schemies for a quick wham bang theres your cert son.

So anyway as you do on the course you ask questions ie why is it I am having to tool up for PAT and get a C&G certificate when I know it will be a loss leader for me because people are brainwashed ie landlords,public & letting agents that you only test things with a plug on it. Yes comes the reply there is a feeling that the plot has been lost on the PAT industry and it needs to get sorted with regards to time intervils fixed equipment ect. Yes I noticed that I could not sign up for a PAT course but instead I found it under ISI&TEE (formally PAT) so somethings up. Yes well spotted came the reply PAT needs to get relaunched but we cannot sanction PAT testers doing fixed appliances and we cannot ignore fixed appliances.

Now this was November 2011 and in February the HSE said they were doing a review at the same time the minister for business said PAT was an excessive burden on business and this would have to change so far HSE said there is no reason in some environments to do PAT testing every year and the industry needed tidied up so they commissioned a report and are now in the process of reviewing it. So for me yes I think this will give sparks a better incentive to have ISI&TEE as one of their services as I see rental property going to 2 year testing including fixed appliances but HMOs could stay yearly now thats my opinion and if you have been reading the EICR debacle on rental properties no government are going to push more cost and regulation onto business ie landlords / letting agents who we think are the majority of the sector but no there is the big social housing and local council housing groups who would be affected one example was my late mum she had to pay £5 extra a month because they supplied a washing machine that had to be PAT tested once a year but she also had 2 storage heaters and an immersion,electric shower that under the new COPs would have to be tested.

Just to add if a landlord is paying £50 a year to PAT test then moving it to 2 yearly with fixed appliances for say £75 well that sorts out the problem they get fixed appliances included and the cost for the landlord drops to £37.50 a year happy days
 
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Cheers for that Oldtimer,

I too see that not everything requires tested every year but one example I came across was in my room at travel lodge when I was at Elex in Manchester there.

I noticed the test labels and the one on the kettle had a two year span between test! Now if I had been testing that appliance in that situ, I would take into account the number of possible users and frequency of handling and use and I would have put a yearly re-test date on it.
 
It looks like what they've tried to do there is to clarify 'common sense' which as we all know in reality isn't that common.
For example basic user checks such as telling the boss if you have to 'wiggle the lead' on an appliance or if a flex has become frayed, could be done more easily and effectively in a small office with a handful of employees, eg going down the shop and buying a replacement, rather than in a large office where employees are told not to attempt any kind of maintenance in case the company get sued, and employees might be put off reporting defective appliances for fear that the time taken by facilities to order a replacement will cause too much inconvenience.
This could well be 'self-policing' as smaller companies are less likely to be able to afford a dedicated health and safety rep.
These user checks could be far more effective than paying someone 50p to slap on a sticker every year.
 
The thing is we need clear definition and guidance to clear out the chancers and as always I smel hot fudge which is nice with ice cream but not when we are trying to get some clear rules in PAT testing
 
BigBreakfast said:
I noticed the test labels and the one on the kettle had a two year span between test! Now if I had been testing that appliance in that situ, I would take into account the number of possible users and frequency of handling and use and I would have put a yearly re-test date on it.
Click to expand...

On the flipside I've seen labels for equipment being used on Construction sites with a one-year retest date label on them when the Code of Practice recommends a maximum of 3 months between Combined Inspections and Tests! "Once a year" seems to be (wrongly) stuck in peoples' heads.
 
Risteard said:
On the flipside I've seen labels for equipment being used on Construction sites with a one-year retest date label on them when the Code of Practice recommends a maximum of 3 months between Combined Inspections and Tests! "Once a year" seems to be (wrongly) stuck in peoples' heads.
Click to expand...

I have no timeframe stuck in my head, I take each item and where it is and it's use and make my decision on that . Instead of digging at me for my choice of retest of something that I have seen you could have just agreed that not everyone is following accepted testing procedure.
 
BigBreakfast said:
I have no timeframe stuck in my head, I take each item and where it is and it's use and make my decision on that . Instead of digging at me for my choice of retest of something that I have seen you could have just agreed that not everyone is following accepted testing procedure.
Click to expand...

I wasn't "digging at you". In fact I was agreeing with you that a decision should be taken based on the circumstances of how it is used, any deterioration which has occured over time, etc. I was also pointing out that many people fail to understand that different equipment should have different timeframes for Combined Inspection and Testing depending on how onerous the environment in which they are used, etc. as well.

So I really don't understand why you think I was having a go at you.
 
Apologies Risteard, just picked you up wrong .

Talking to testers from a pat test co recently and digging for info found them to be pushed to do 250 a day @ 60p a shot which to my mind just ticking a box for someone and this is a scenario where I see wrong retest dates may creep in.
 
i think the name says it portable appliance test , it all depends again on the usage of the equipment building sites there is a high risk of damage where an office there is not , but depending on the fixed appliance to if its a fridge freeezer wired into a fused spur then i will disconneect it safe block it test it and put it back , but if im sat at a desk testing appliances i wouldnt expect some one to bring a cooker over lol see what im saying depends on the itm usage risk , etc
 
Dont want to burst your bubble here but you should read some of the other posts HSE have just commissioned an independant report as they reckoned that PAT testing was becoming a waste of time and that they recommend that some equipment in some environments either dont have to be tested or the periods betwen tests should be longer in other words a fudge also collages around the country are dropping part and are adopting ISI&TEE because change is a coming in their words so what the problem well people think that PAT testing is anything with a plug on it but this is missing the obvious what about fixed equipment well that can be done under I&T well no it cannot as I&T is for fixed wiring only and electrical equipment wether it is hard wired in or has a plug on it comes under ISI&TEE (formally) PAT so whats the big deal well an electrician can test a fixed appliance but a PAT tester cannot as the college says they cannot and will not authorise these guys to do and this kicks on to insurance so big deal lets just ignore fixed appliances well no because they need to get a handle on this before it comes back and bite them hence the delima they face as we all know the "PAT" industry is becoming a a joke with sticker companies having a field day.

Plus as for the NICEIC they would sell their granny a PAT course if they thought they would get a few bob out of it as they are sales driven and u=in my view are responsable for the state this industry now finds itself in because they are feeding the you to can be an electrician in so many weeks so the comment of you only have to PAT test anything with a plug on it yes it does aply to PAT testing as it used to be called but why do you think they have changed the name to ISI&TEE and are talking about a relaunch because it comes down to insurance companies who have just cottened on that fixed appliances are being missed out and there lies a potential risk for them.
 
oldtimer said:
that they recommend that some equipment in some environments either dont have to be tested or the periods betwen tests should be longer


I have a copy of the HSE report which indicates that, provided "formal visual recorded inspections" are made and recorded, then a full inspection and test is not necessary.

However, there are over 3,000 items at my place of work and the company staff do not have time to perform these additional tests - usually on double insulated items in offices.

However, if anyone has other constructive ideas..........
Click to expand...
 
Unless i'm missing the obvious, the company has serveral choices:

v Find the time to set up a testing regime and conduct it in-house
v Engage the services of a contractor
v Ignore it and hope for the best
v Consider employing someone part time to work through the backlog and get the t&i up to date.
 
ohreally said:
Unless i'm missing the obvious, the company has serveral choices:

v Find the time to set up a testing regime and conduct it in-house
v Engage the services of a contractor
v Ignore it and hope for the best
v Consider employing someone part time to work through the backlog and get the t&i up to date.
Click to expand...
As our american cousins would is this not kicking the can down the road ?
 
infinity said:
What frequency do you guys suggest PAT testing in schools?
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In the 3rd edition of IEE regulations, there are 6 categories, of which schools is one. For the user check, all hand held appliances should be tested before use, all others the user check is weekly. For the full Recorded Combined Inspection and Testing, class 1 is every 12 months and class 2 is every 48 months. Don't forget there is the Recorded Formal Visual Inspection in addition.

Everything is in Table 1 - quote "Initial frequency"

I find the guide to be easily read by all.

Good luck!!!
 
Adam W said:
It looks like what they've tried to do there is to clarify 'common sense' which as we all know in reality isn't that common.
For example basic user checks such as telling the boss if you have to 'wiggle the lead' on an appliance or if a flex has become frayed, could be done more easily and effectively in a small office with a handful of employees, eg going down the shop and buying a replacement, rather than in a large office where employees are told not to attempt any kind of maintenance in case the company get sued, and employees might be put off reporting defective appliances for fear that the time taken by facilities to order a replacement will cause too much inconvenience.
This could well be 'self-policing' as smaller companies are less likely to be able to afford a dedicated health and safety rep.
These user checks could be far more effective than paying someone 50p to slap on a sticker every year.
Click to expand...

Never mind the topic thats a dam fine looking breakfast
 
huntos33 said:
Never mind the topic thats a dam fine looking breakfast
Click to expand...
It's an 'Olympic' breakfast. More of a political statement than anything - Little Chef having been banned from using the term 'Olympic' because of this year's Olympics.
A bigger problem seems to be that it makes me feel hungry every time I post on the forum.
 
Hi, new to the forum. I too was trying to see what people do regarding fixed appliances. Seems some do & some dont. I also am pleased to see that many of you say its impossible to do hundreds of items a day if its being done correctly. I just did a job of 173 items in a hotel kind of enviroment. It took 3.5 days, although this incuded a lot of remedials and re testing. I would be interested to know what tests people normally carry out. I do visual, earth bond (if required) insulation and leakage. Also one dilema Ive come accross a couple of times recently, heavy items namely beer fridges that are pluged into a socket which cannot be accessed without emptying the fridge and pulling it out from under the worktop. I also had a large coffee machine this week as well. Because emergency isolation cant be performed should the fridge (or other heavy item ) fail because of location? Your comments please.
 
With the beer fridge, I'd book myself into the nearest hotel, then return to the place of work and systematically empty that the said piece of equipment of its contents. All booked to the job of course!

You could prove earth continuity,of sorts in this case, by taking a measurement off the fridge casing and the nearest available earth.
 
ohreally said:
Unless i'm missing the obvious, the company has serveral choices:

v Find the time to set up a testing regime and conduct it in-house
v Engage the services of a contractor
v Ignore it and hope for the best
v Consider employing someone part time to work through the backlog and get the t&i up to date.
Click to expand...

I'm the one doing the tests inhouse - but, if the company arranged for someone to do the visual formal tests, I would not have to do the combined tests!

Now up to 4,300 and on track on the railway.

Point me to a better way!!!!!!!!!............. Signals time for breakfast!
 
You could prove earth continuity,of sorts in this case, by taking a measurement off the fridge casing and the nearest available earth

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...testing-fixed-appliances-6.html#ixzz2J4s1zeGU

Yes I can get a reading that way but my point was, when I did my City & Guilds testing course we were told you can fail an item just because its in an unsuitable location. (the example given was a portable stereo in a bay where a pressure washer is regulary used). When you carry out a periodoc inspection ofthe installation (which I appreciate isnt taught in PAT testing) part of the test sheet relates to adequte access to switchgear. So if youve got a chuffin great appliance which is blocking all access to the socket its plugged into unless you move it then surely its in an usuitable location because you have to also have means of Emergeny isolation.
 
Adam W said:
II&TEE (In Service Inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment.
That's what the IET call it - there's no need to start making up your own acronyms.
Who ever heard of a company getting someone in to do FAT testing?
Click to expand...

FAT = Factory Acceptance Test.

Not a lot of people know that :)
 
Hi Fryers, If you read the new IET code of practice, edition 4 that came out last November, all retesting is done by risk assessment. It depends on type and class of item, location, whos using it, previous PAT test history, how likely staff or users are liable to report a problem. Thers a few other bits in there as well. Bearing in mind the code is only a guide, it says you dont put a retest date on the stickers anymore either. What I have done on my last few jobs is make a susgested retest sched and told the duty holder that the final descision is up to them if they think it should be done more or less often.
 
Bazza Sparks said:
Hi Fryers, If you read the new IET code of practice, edition 4 that came out last November, all retesting is done by risk assessment. It depends on type and class of item, location, whos using it, previous PAT test history, how likely staff or users are liable to report a problem. Thers a few other bits in there as well. Bearing in mind the code is only a guide, it says you dont put a retest date on the stickers anymore either. What I have done on my last few jobs is make a susgested retest sched and told the duty holder that the final descision is up to them if they think it should be done more or less often.
Click to expand...


Ditto me to
 
Well if you are a PAT tester legally you cannot and you are not insured if you are a qualified spark you can plus you will need to make a set of leads up BIG GREY area this
 
oldtimer said:
Well if you are a PAT tester legally you cannot and you are not insured if you are a qualified spark you can plus you will need to make a set of leads up BIG GREY area this
Click to expand...

I am a time served sparks with 50 years experiance but not Part P. None of my customers have asked me to test the appliances supplied, so is it up to them if they
have them tested ? I do have problems with cookers tripping off the C.U RCD which is a pain in the ar--. In one case I had to replace the cooker, Customer not happy.
Once again thanks for your replies.
 
Here is the problem ISI&TEE or PAT was always about testing electrical equipment no matter how they are connected so why ? Well it was brought in because electrical deaths at work was not from fixed wiring but electrical equipment .

Problem was when it took off it seemed a pretty neat idea in the workplace to get semi skilled people to do the testing of portable equipment only with the electrician mopping up the fixed equipment but no one predicted the explosion in this sector plus we also went to a service based economy ie office . shop and rental properties only thing is the people who ran it were saying remember you have to test fixed appliances as well but the PAT companies were allowed to in my view run wild and anyway it did not pay to do fixed as they also had to hire an electrician for it.

So PAT companies started perpetuating the myths that we have now ie PAT means portable equipment only or electricians have to get C&G2377 to do it if not then they are not PAT qualified or You have to PAT test every year because if something happens you could be charged with coperate manslaughter.

Only problem even after the H&S and ISI&TEE review we are no further forward or clearer yep the government wants to widen the test period for less cost to business but have lumped the decission on the customer and still not clarified fixed appliance. Now that means PAT companies are still ignoring it so when you or I are asked to quote for it we get stuck with like for like so yep customer does not want it but the regs say otherwise.
 
oldtimer said:
Only problem even after the H&S and ISI&TEE review we are no further forward or clearer yep the government wants to widen the test period for less cost to business but have lumped the decission on the customer and still not clarified fixed appliance. Now that means PAT companies are still ignoring it so when you or I are asked to quote for it we get stuck with like for like so yep customer does not want it but the regs say otherwise.
Click to expand...

The decision on the test interval has always been with the customer since day one of the introduction of the EAWR I remember having a conversation with the HSE on the very subject 20 odd years ago and as always the HSE sat on the fence and did not offer any definitive answer that could implicate themselves if an accident occurred the only information offered was that the test interval should be set at a level that provides adequate checks for the type of appliance and the misuse (abuse) it may get in normal use
 
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