PIR registration and CU replacement

[clavaspark]

Hi All,

I am an Electrician with 15 years' experience of installation and testing; I have my 2391 and can call myself a competent person. I am planning to go self-employed and there are a couple of things I am unsure of as follows.

To carry our PIRs on domestic properties is it a requirement that I should be registered with one of the electrical body's?

Also if a customer asks for a consumer unit change but doesn't want to pay for a PIR for their domestic dwelling would I be breaking any rules by doing this?

Cheers
Si

 

[SparkyChick]

Welcome to the forums.

Was going to answer, but I notice you're in Scotland so I'm not sure on the first query.

The second one, I doubt it but they should be made aware that if issues are found during the changeover additional works might be required which would adversely affect their bill

But as I say, I'm not in Scotland so I'm not sure about the specific rules etc. that apply up there.

 

[Octopus]

Whats a PIR? Do you mean EICR?

 

[clavaspark]

Whats a PIR? Do you mean EICR?

Yes, should of said EICR

 

[cprfenom]

Whats a PIR? Do you mean EICR?

Is someone being Pedantic so early on a Sunday Morning?

 

[suffolkspark]

You dont need to be registered with a scheme to carry out EICRS no.

When you change a ccu you need to be sure that the circuits you are putting back into service are safe for continued use.... In my opinion an EICR is the only way this can truely be confirmed.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

There are two ways to approach a CU change, by the book an EICR is carried out first and any faults rectified before the CU change. But in the real world most CU changes are the result of a request for a quote, and nobody is going to carry out a full EICR as part of an estimate for a CU change they may not even get. Normally I carry out a few basic tests and inspections which with experience is a pretty good guide to whether a CU change is viable when I site visit for the quote. The client is also made aware that full tests will be carried out during the CU change which may result in extra costs should there be any hidden problems.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

In my opinion an EICR is the only way this can truely be confirmed.

The problem is people expect free estimates, if you suggest spending a couple of hundred quid before they even get an estimate.....well good luck with that. Or are you doing free EICR's?

 

[Octopus]

In my opinion an EICR is the only way this can truely be confirmed.

This is what I disagree with ..............

ALL my cu replacement quotes include a caveat about unexpected faults and these adding time and money ............. never had it challenged

But there are rare occasions, where my site visit to discuss a quote will mean I would insist on an EICR or worse I would decline to quote for anything.

 

[Pete999]

Hi All,

I am an Electrician with 15 years' experience of installation and testing; I have my 2391 and can call myself a competent person. I am planning to go self-employed and there are a couple of things I am unsure of as follows.

To carry our PIRs on domestic properties is it a requirement that I should be registered with one of the electrical body's?

Also if a customer asks for a consumer unit change but doesn't want to pay for a PIR for their domestic dwelling would I be breaking any rules by doing this?

Cheers
Si

No but you could be in all sorts of difficulties, if you didn't carry out some basic tests prior to changing the CU, IMO

 

[Octopus]

Is someone being Pedantic so early on a Sunday Morning?

Referring to EICR's as PIR's simply suggests the person isn't up to date with the regs ............ they stopped being PIR's about 5 years ago

 

[suffolkspark]

I always do a full EICR with a board change, never had it challenged either. I dont do fixed quotations.

 

[Pete999]

Hi All,

I am an Electrician with 15 years' experience of installation and testing; I have my 2391 and can call myself a competent person. I am planning to go self-employed and there are a couple of things I am unsure of as follows.

To carry our PIRs on domestic properties is it a requirement that I should be registered with one of the electrical body's?

Also if a customer asks for a consumer unit change but doesn't want to pay for a PIR for their domestic dwelling would I be breaking any rules by doing this?

Cheers
Si

Read Electrical Safety First Best Practice Guide Number 1
https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/mediafile/100423440/Best-Practice-Guide-1-Issue-3-.pdf

 

[cprfenom]

Referring to EICR's as PIR's simply suggests the person isn't up to date with the regs ............ they stopped being PIR's about 5 years ago

I cannot disagree with that.

 

[JOURNEYMAN]

As Pete suggests, read Best Practice Guide Number 1 in which section 6.2.1 and 6.2.2, which basically says that the customer should be encouraged to have an EICR undertaken, however if they refuse then a pre-work survey should be undertaken to ascertain if there are any immediate or potential dangers or if there's a condition that would cause unwanted tripping of the rcd in the existing installation affected by the change.
As other have said, in the real world, customers often don't wish to spend the money on the EICR and prefer to pay the minimum and just go for the board change.
I think it's a judgement call on the electrician and not the customer to ascertain whether or not an existing installation is 'up to' a simple board change or whether or not the installation requires extensive repair or replacement so in my opinion a thorough visual inspection and testing prior would be vital.
Interestingly, on one of my assessment a couple of years ago, the assessor asked me if I had copies of the EICRS carried out prior to the board changes that I'd undertaken and encouraged me to keep a record of them or any pre work surveys.

 

[clavaspark]

Referring to EICR's as PIR's simply suggests the person isn't up to date with the regs ............ they stopped being PIR's about 5 years ago

You dont need to be registered with a scheme to carry out EICRS no.

When you change a ccu you need to be sure that the circuits you are putting back into service are safe for continued use.... In my opinion an EICR is the only way this can truely be confirmed.

 

[clavaspark]

Ok thanks Pete999 and journeyman, I will keep a copy of that document, it’s confirmed a couple of things with me.

 

[TJ Anderson]

The main concerns when doing domestic CU changes our lack of or inadequate bonding, insulation faults and broken rings. All of these will cause an issue.
When you do site visit to quote, if there is apparently no visual issues, then ask customer if they mind you turning off the power as you need to perform some quick tests on thier wiring to confirm it can take the new board. They love this. It takes minutes for you, you know where you are with the job and it gives customers confidence that you know what you're doing. Bet your competition won't bother.

Turn off main switch and pick a socket on ring final. Do end to ends. If other rings, then do same. Then do global 250 IR L/N - E from any socket outlet. Off the back of this you can either go ahead with CU change or state with confidence what is required beforehand.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I did come badly unstuck on one CU change where very little pre-work checking was done. Although all looked reasonable from the outside there were multiple problems, including two drilled ring cables in the recently fitted kitchen, and multiple JB's under floors where the previous owner had installed spurs and simply cut off all the earths. Nightmare, 2 days were spent rectifying issues. An EICR carried out beforehand and I'd have said scrap it and rewire the lot. That is the only time there's been a major problem with the limited pre-work survey and extra cost caveat in the estimate though.
Last week I looked at a CU change request for an elderly couple who's son was concerned at their old CU...a quick inspection showed the entire place was in Aluminium T/E......no go advise issued, either rewire or leave well alone, they opted for the latter.

 

[richy3333]

I too come under the auspices of the shitty Highland Council.

In SCOTLAND if your doing EICR’s in domestic properties you don’t need to be NICEIC/SELECT registered so long as you can prove competency. However if you are doing rented houses under the Scottish short form tenancy agreement you DO or you need a valid JIB card and jump though a load of hoops/paperwork. Look at the last Housing Act amendment.

In any event you’ll need suitable liability insurance and may find that the insurer requires you to register to ‘prove’ competency.

Regarding C.U. changes if it or any part requires a Building Warrant, or comes under parts of the Building Standards again you need registration or JIB to prove competency.

Hope that helps.

 

[TJ Anderson]

..a quick inspection showed the entire place was in Aluminium T/E......no go advise issued, either rewire or leave well alone, they opted for the latter.

Cool...you hardly ever see that now.... Ive only come across it a couple of times. Still plenty of Tinned Copper stranded T&E but not the solid Aluminium.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

In SCOTLAND if your doing EICR’s in domestic properties you don’t need to be NICEIC/SELECT registered so long as you can prove competency. However if you are doing rented houses under the Scottish short form tenancy agreement you DO or you need a valid JIB card and jump though a load of hoops/paperwork. Look at the last Housing Act amendment.
In any event you’ll need suitable liability insurance and may find that the insurer requires you to register to ‘prove’ competency.

.

I may have misread the requirements for landlord EICRS.
Its statutory guidance that you are a member of one of thee schemes .
This been laid out to infer you are required to be a member of NICEIC/SELECT.
the check list does state that an electrician is part of these schemes or similar.
I cant find any legislation that actually stipulates you are legally required to be a member of NICEIC/SELECT or similar .
I accept that maybe ,I cant find it .
the only part I can see thats relevant is that you are competent
Scottish Landlords | Electrical Safety First - https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guidance/advice-for-you/landlords/scottish-landlords/

if you have a link to the updated legislation, that I have missed could you guide me to it please ?
Scottish Government are good at writing information that infers things ,they leave a grey areas for wriggle room.
Statutory guidance is not law, although should be considered by the courts in any case .
Therefore surely if you have experience ,coupled with the relevant certificates for inspection and testing, this goes a long way to prove competence.
My interpretation is if you are able to prove competence then you are able to carry out these EICR for landlords.
Really whats the difference to doing an EICR for a family living in a owned dwelling to a rented dwelling , its the same tests/risks.

For newbuilds or extensions, then you do need to be a member of NICEIC/SELECT have ecs and be Scottish Building Standards approved.

albeit maybe I have interpreted it incorrectly .
section 22B also inserts new section 19B in the 2006 Act. New section 19B provides that an inspection carried out for the purposes of new section 19A must be carried out by a competent person and specifies information which must be included in the record of the inspection, which must be retained by the landlord for six years. New section 19B also provides that the Scottish Ministers must publish guidance and that, in determining whether someone is a competent person as required by subsection 19B(1), landlords must have regard to this guidance

again it states that its guidance

 

[richy3333]

See Annex A: Competent person (as per Housing Act)

I paraphrase - Landlords can take membership of NICEIC or SELECT as evidence of competence. Alternatively the landlord 'should seek evidence of competence' Such details are shown on the following page.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

See Annex A: Competent person (as per Housing Act)

I paraphrase - Landlords can take membership of NICEIC or SELECT as evidence of competence. Alternatively the landlord 'should seek evidence of competence' Such details are shown on the following page.

I've just had an interesting day in regards to this ( off with a virus today ) .
The Annexe A is mandatory guidance that scot gov must give in relation to the housing act.
the guidance is not statutory as in its a legal requirement , well thats my understanding.
having spoken to electrical safety first and shelter (who were involved in consultation of this bill ). They both agree that the guidance is purely that.
I'm not a member of select or nic, although, I did contact them and they both agreed that there is no legal requirement to join any professional body. They would go any further than that with me.
This would seem to be a bit of smoke and mirrors and heavy inferring that you are required to be a member by Scots gov to conduct an EICR on a rented property.

it seems to be a strange one once people read it ...as I say maybe I'm missing something, but would love to clear this up once and for all

 

[baldelectrician]

The law requires there NOT to be a closed shop - such as there is with Gas Safe (it is under H&S legislation)

In a nutshell there are schemes (NICEIC, SELECT, napit) where contractors listed are deemed competent.

If a landlord uses a scheme member they can prove they comply to the requirements (providing the EICR is passed, or remedial work is proved after a failed EICR).

If they do not all the burden of proof is on the landlord- if the electrician states he or she has liability insurance and they do not then if something were to happen then the landlord may be in a situation.

In other words- use a registered contractor then they comply, fail to do so then they may or may not comply

I do not understand why any decent contractor who does things right (in Scotland) does not wish to join a scheme. Its just more than £10 a week- you will make this back in one or two jobs.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

The law requires there NOT to be a closed shop - such as there is with Gas Safe (it is under H&S legislation)

In a nutshell there are schemes (NICEIC, SELECT, napit) where contractors listed are deemed competent.

If a landlord uses a scheme member they can prove they comply to the requirements (providing the EICR is passed, or remedial work is proved after a failed EICR).

If they do not all the burden of proof is on the landlord- if the electrician states he or she has liability insurance and they do not then if something were to happen then the landlord may be in a situation.

In other words- use a registered contractor then they comply, fail to do so then they may or may not comply

I do not understand why any decent contractor who does things right (in Scotland) does not wish to join a scheme. Its just more than £10 a week- you will make this back in one or two jobs.

hi thanks for this update, thats great and as I thought. thanks for the quick reply

 

[richy3333]

The law requires there NOT to be a closed shop - such as there is with Gas Safe (it is under H&S legislation)

In a nutshell there are schemes (NICEIC, SELECT, napit) where contractors listed are deemed competent.

If a landlord uses a scheme member they can prove they comply to the requirements (providing the EICR is passed, or remedial work is proved after a failed EICR).

If they do not all the burden of proof is on the landlord- if the electrician states he or she has liability insurance and they do not then if something were to happen then the landlord may be in a situation.

In other words- use a registered contractor then they comply, fail to do so then they may or may not comply

I do not understand why any decent contractor who does things right (in Scotland) does not wish to join a scheme. Its just more than £10 a week- you will make this back in one or two jobs.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Always raises an eyebrow when companies argue the hell out of not being a scheme member (or SJIB)? You have to wonder why (I've yet to see a convincing arguement).