Proof of apprenticeship 1970s

[Donnie]

Any chance your apprenticeship was managed by the CITB it could be worth checking with them

A few years ago I went looking at the ECS site and was surprised how much info they had on me despite having never used the site before, the interesting part was initially I couldn't sign on / logon to get access to the site at the first attempt while it acknowledged my existance some of my details had been entered by others incorrectly when they set up their database from I believe were the JIB records, I had to call them in the end to try to unlock the problem as I was unhappy about them having my data on their system that I couldn't access after getting past a few jobsworth's I eventually found someone with a bit of sense that found my D.O.B. had been entered incorrectly stopping me accessing the site but they then wanted me to send in my birth certificate to validate my D.O.B., wasn't too happy about that and a few weeks later at an Elex I collered one of the head bods on the ECS stand who asked me to call him the following week and it got sorted.

So I'm wondering if the SJIB's database has lost your info because of a data input error, may be worth having a look at the ECS site

Thanks, I think it was CITB, I will definitely give them a try too, cheers

 

[markbrads]

I completed my apprenticeship in 1985, had my C&G 236 1 and 2 Certificates and JIB Certificate of successful completion and that was it at the time.

Hi
I’m having trouble with the JIB (ECS) claiming I didn’t complete my apprenticeship which I insist I did and continue to work as an electrician 30 odd years later, your dates are similar to mine and I was wondering how long after the C&G 2362 did the Certificate of successful completion get issued ?
Would greatly appreciate a reply.

Thanks
Mark

 

[Donnie]

Hi
I’m having trouble with the JIB (ECS) claiming I didn’t complete my apprenticeship which I insist I did and continue to work as an electrician 30 odd years later, your dates are similar to mine and I was wondering how long after the C&G 2362 did the Certificate of successful completion get issued ?
Would greatly appreciate a reply.

Thanks
Mark

Hi Mark, I have given up with the SJIB,there is no point in wasting any more time with them.
I have supplied my C&G certification from 1979 when I completed my apprenticeship ,and also from 1995 when I completed another 2 year C&G course.
They are not interested if I can not provide proof of having completed my apprenticeship,this was between 76 and 80,the company are long gone.I offered to get testimonials from my fellow apprentices and the electricians who trained us as they are still about ,again not interested.
So my 46 years in the trade will not be recognised.
I am carrying on working, I live in a place where everyone knows that I am a qualified electrician and plenty folk remember us serving our time ,so getting jobs is not a problem, being in the SJIB or a trade body would be fine but doesn't compare to having a good reputation in the community where you are known.
Good luck with getting your grading,let me know on here if you make any progress
Regards
Donnie

 

[ipf]

Hi Mark, I have given up with the SJIB,there is no point in wasting any more time with them.
I have supplied my C&G certification from 1979 when I completed my apprenticeship ,and also from 1995 when I completed another 2 year C&G course.
They are not interested if I can not provide proof of having completed my apprenticeship,this was between 76 and 80,the company are long gone.I offered to get testimonials from my fellow apprentices and the electricians who trained us as they are still about ,again not interested.
So my 46 years in the trade will not be recognised.
I am carrying on working, I live in a place where everyone knows that I am a qualified electrician and plenty folk remember us serving our time ,so getting jobs is not a problem, being in the SJIB or a trade body would be fine but doesn't compare to having a good reputation in the community where you are known.
Good luck with getting your grading,let me know on here if you make any progress
Regards
Donnie

I'm with you, stuff 'em, mate. If you know your job and can provide a service, what's the problem. If you're self employed, just watch out for things from the insurance point of view.
There are people falling out of bed and into 'recognition' as qualified sparks, the vast majority of whom will be well inferior in knowledge and experience.
The game's gone ar$e over t!t, especially for the last 20 years.

 

[Tom 256]

Same situation.
Apprenticeship with the then North Western Electricity Board (NORWEB) in early 80's based from Fredderick road, Salford.

Have no proof of apprenticeship completed. Have emailed (NORWEB) as it now is and they state they have not kept records that far back.

The system here is broken for so few will retain a 'paper document' for 40 years to which for most of that time there was no need to do so.

I have the 2361 and the 2362 from C & G

 

[Tom 256]

Its frustrating that no grandfather rights exist to allow for what is a flaw in the system.
I have seen so many guys just through the AM2 who really don't have a clue. So much knowledge rests with the older guys and yet this depth of experience built on solid qualifications counts for nothing when the computer says NO

ECS stated I would have to declare my apprenticeship was not completed to progress my application. I replied I would not ever declare such for I know I did complete what was an outstanding apprenticeship.

 

[loz2754]

I would have been just down the road from you at Ward & Goldstone serving my time as an apprentice toolmaker! Circa 1978.

 

[Tom 256]

Yes now you say it I remember that name of Ward and Goldstone. Would be good to bring back more of the memories... that and proof of the apprenticeship served.

Funny how it works, my strongest memory of the Frederick road site was the staff canteen and buying burnt toast with jam as you waited to see which site you would be sent off to . I take it a liking still for burnt toast is not proof of F*** all. Stuff sure gets complicated when you have to accomodate 'the system' and that computer that says no.

 

[Tom 256]

In the latest version of the EAS qualifications guide - August 2023 - they have made a change.
They now acknowledge these qualifcations were pre AM2 and were completed without AM2 . I have an email from C & G confirming these quals incorporated an end point assessment.

They also acknowledge these qualifcations taken pre 1994 would have almost certainly been part of a formal apprenticeship (more so going back still a decade earlier when no youngster of 16 yrs of age could do so without an indentured apprenticeship agrrement). And for all that they still need a slip of paper handed to a lad 40 yrs ago! * Computer says NO *

It also shows the 2361 / 2362 was suitable for all forms of electrical work.

Anyone know anyone in the EAS / IET and able to submit this thread to them for comment?

Link to AUgust 23 doc - https://electrical.------.org/media/3074/eas-qualifications-guide-august-2023.pdf

Page downloaded in support of my above statements attached

 

[Donnie]

In the latest version of the EAS qualifications guide - August 2023 - they have made a change.
They now acknowledge these qualifcations were pre AM2 and were completed without AM2 . I have an email from C & G confirming these quals incorporated an end point assessment.

They also acknowledge these qualifcations taken pre 1994 would have almost certainly been part of a formal apprenticeship (more so going back still a decade earlier when no youngster of 16 yrs of age could do so without an indentured apprenticeship agrrement). And for all that they still need a slip of paper handed to a lad 40 yrs ago! * Computer says NO *

It also shows the 2361 / 2362 was suitable for all forms of electrical work.

Anyone know anyone in the EAS / IET and able to submit this thread to them for comment?

Link to AUgust 23 doc - https://electrical.------.org/media/3074/eas-qualifications-guide-august-2023.pdf

Page downloaded in support of my above statements attached

Tom.
Thanks for posting this ,I did not know about the update on the EAS site,I had given up on pursuing this any further,but now I might give it another go .
Regards
Donnie

 

[ipf]

I would have been just down the road from you at Ward & Goldstone serving my time as an apprentice toolmaker! Circa 1978.

Volex, eh? Ward and Goldstone crap, we used to call it.
A good friend, long gone, used to be chief electrical engineer there a few decades ago.

 

[Tom256]

Tom.
Thanks for posting this ,I did not know about the update on the EAS site,I had given up on pursuing this any further,but now I might give it another go .
Regards
Donnie

I am still pursuing this and wanted to update.

I made a subject access request to HMRC for information on my employment between 1980 to 1985 - the period that covered the apprenticeship with NORWEB (plus a year)
HMRC have records and sent me details that show I was working where I claimed to be year by year. They even have the amount of pay received each year. Of interest the pay shows the increase in salary that an apprentice would receive with each milestone reached.

No other records exists that I have been able to locate from this age pre-AM2. Electricity North West (was NORWEB) never kept records. As such my statement to ECS - who have themself stated in their own guide to qualifications that pre 1994 qualifications were highly likely to have been part of an apprenticeship. As such if no organisation deemed it neccesary to keep these records from 40 + years ago, and if it is reasonable to say a paper document its form unknown could be lost, then should not other forms of evidence be open to assessment to establish proof beyond reasonable doubt.

HMRC records can convict a person so you would have thought it would be enough. I suspect now the reply will be to question if the apprenticeship was 'any good'.

 

[Tom256]

Update on this thread:
As covered in my previous posts within this thread, I qualifed pre-AM2 and long lost my final apprenticeship completion letter. The ECS card criteria permits those with the required qualifications who completed pre-AM2 to gain the card on qualifications plus prove of the Apprenticeship completion. I was never able to provide that final letter of completion. Despite well over 25 years spent in the Electrical industry, over the last 40 years since qualifiying, such has meant I was unable to obtain the Installation Electrician ECS Gold Card.

However, I have fought hard and worked to compile and present a substantial evidence file that went to the JIB 2nd stage appeal. The final pieces of that evidence file being the testimony from Electricity North West and the HMRC records.
This morning I heard the oputcome of that appeal

Quote:
The steering committee have agreed that due to the documentation provided, we can provide the Installation Electrician Gold card as long as you meet these requirements.
We can see you hold the 18th edition certificate, but we still require you to provide valid H&S and a copy of your photo ID to confirm the names on your Part 1 and Part 2 certificates.
[end quote]

 

[littlespark]

Well done.

Determination pays off in the end

 

[Tom256]

Well done.

Determination pays off in the end

Thank you that is appreciated.

The industry needs the mix of men and women from all levels of time served to be able to come together and share knowledge and experience. This is for the good of the trade because there was great value in the 'old ways' all but lost.
It has been so very frustrating and I was not going to go down without exhausting every possible option open no matter how many years that was to take.