RCD on bathroom lighting

[The General]

Okay, I'm preparing to open myself up to some abuse here, but I have had a good read of the BGB before I posted this and I just want to make sure I had things right as I think the regs are perhaps open to interpretation.

I've just done a bathroom makeover with a plumber mate which involved (amongst other things) replacing the existing single light fitting with some new LED downlighters. House is TT with old wylex re-wireable fuses and an old voltage trip upfront of all of it.

Now, what I've done is to put the lighting feed on an RCD fused spur after it leaves the C/Unit, but it just got me to thinking....

When I read 701.32.1 'General' it says that "When applying this section, the zones specified in 701.32.2 to 4 shall be taken into account...."

So.... if the ceiling is above 2.25m or outside the zones, then that means that things like downlighters are not in the location containing the bath or shower and therefore the requirements for additional protection by RCD (701.411.3.3) are not needed?

Have I read this right? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?!

In this instance I needed the RCD for other reasons anyway, but had I just been doing the lights, would it have been okay to simply replace the old fitting with the new downlights?

Thanks for your advice guys/gals.

 

[Octopus]

Good practice says a bathroom make over, by a professional sparky, would include RCD protection for all circuits....

jmo

 

[Andy78]

"When applying this section the zones shall be taken into account" means that the specific requirements for equipment in zones shall be applied where necessary.

701.411.3.3 should be read to mean what it says. RCD protection for all final circuits in a location containing a bath or a shower.

If the lights were outside of the zone, you could fit lights that were not IP rated to IPX4, but they would still have to be RCD protected. I would fit bathroom suitable downlights above a bath or a shower in all occasions though regardless of height.

 

[The General]

"When applying this section the zones shall be taken into account" means that the specific requirements for equipment in zones shall be applied where necessary.

701.411.3.3 should be read to mean what it says. RCD protection for all final circuits in a location containing a bath or a shower.

If the lights were outside of the zone, you could fit lights that were not IP rated to IPX4, but they would still have to be RCD protected. I would fit bathroom suitable downlights above a bath or a shower in all occasions though regardless of height.

Thanks Andy - I don't disagree with any of your comments! This is exactly what I've done, but it just got me thinking.....
Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[dingledong]

But they are outside the zone

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I have also read this regulation as meaning 'everywhere' in the bath/shower room needs to have RCD preotection.

701.1 "The particular requirements of this section apply to the electrical installations in locations containing a fixed bath or shower AND to the surrounding zones...."

 

[Octopus]

I've seen an increase in the poor electrical installations in bathrooms since, dare I say this, since the rules for notifications in bathrooms were changed.

BS 7671 should be clearer on this point - and state that any electrical circuit "serving a bathroom" must be RCD protected and then expand to cover the lights, even if they are in the ceiling space.

 

[dingledong]

To the surrounding zones and the lights are outside the zones

 

[The General]

But they are outside the zone

That was kinda what got me thinking ;-)
Technically, the downlighters and all electrical connections are actually in the loft.......

 

[Octopus]

That was kinda what got me thinking ;-)
Technically, the downlighters and all electrical connections are actually in the loft.......

Hum... and this is the debate!

My view is that change lights that illuminate the bathroom, then RCD protection required.

JMO

 

[Andy78]

No debate in my eyes.
The lights are in the room, they are below the ceiling to some extent. The room is the special location. The special location has to have RCD protection for all low voltage circuits regardless of whether they are in zones or not.

 

[Farmelectrics]

Yes rcd protection required even though the lights are out side the zone what about external influences ie steam I always install ip rated fittings

 

[Silly Sausage]

BS 7671 should be clearer on this point - and state that any electrical circuit "serving a bathroom" must be RCD protected and then expand to cover the lights, even if they are in the ceiling space.

You had your chance earlier this year!

Hum... and this is the debate!

My view is that change lights that illuminate the bathroom, then RCD protection required.

JMO

Part of the equipment is within the bathroom, so I concur.

 

[dingledong]

But the part we are talking about is outside the zones

 

[Octopus]

But the part we are talking about is outside the zones

So you don't bother with RCD's then?

 

[Andy78]

But the part we are talking about is outside the zones

You're either trying to make a joke or you really need to read 701 again.

 

[dingledong]

When I read 701.32.1 'General' it says that "When applying this section, the zones specified in 701.32.2 to 4 shall be taken into account...."

So.... if the ceiling is above 2.25m or outside the zones, then that means that things like downlighters are not in the location containing the bath or shower and therefore the requirements for additional protection by RCD (701.411.3.3) are not needed?

Have I read this right? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?!

In this instance I needed the RCD for other reasons anyway, but had I just been doing the lights, would it have been okay to simply replace the old fitting with the new downlights?

Thanks for your advice guys/gals.[/QUOTE]
The 2nd paragraph says they are outside the zone surely

 

[HappyHippyDad]

That was kinda what got me thinking ;-)
Technically, the downlighters and all electrical connections are actually in the loft.......

I think we can always play around with words General to suit our arguments. I suppose we could say that you could have a push light switch on the wall of the bathroom as the actual electrics will be in the wall, not in the bathroom.

I think sometimes you have to just think about what is the right way to do it.... A bathroom is full of steam, we are soaking wet... we need an RCD.

 

[dingledong]

"When applying this section the zones shall be taken into account" means that the specific requirements for equipment in zones shall be applied where necessary.

701.411.3.3 should be read to mean what it says. RCD protection for all final circuits in a location containing a bath or a shower.

If the lights were outside of the zone, you could fit lights that were not IP rated to IPX4, but they would still have to be RCD protected. I would fit bathroom suitable downlights above a bath or a shower in all occasions though regardless of height.

701.411.3.3 should, why should ,
The fittings are outside of the zone
So it the ceiling was 4 metres high you would still think.it's in the zone

 

[HappyHippyDad]

When I read 701.32.1 'General' it says that "When applying this section, the zones specified in 701.32.2 to 4 shall be taken into account...."

So.... if the ceiling is above 2.25m or outside the zones, then that means that things like downlighters arenot in the location containing the bath or shower and therefore the requirements for additional protection by RCD (701.411.3.3) are not needed?

Have I read this right? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?!

In this instance I needed the RCD for other reasons anyway, but had I just been doing the lights, would it have been okay to simply replace the old fitting with the new downlights?

Thanks for your advice guys/gals.
The 2nd paragraph says they are outside the zone surely

Dingle, you've said they are not in the 'location'. They are in the 'location' but they are not in the 'zones'. The 'location' is the whole room so IMO 701.411.3.3 applies as it states RCD protection for the 'location', not for equipment in the 'zones'.

 

[dingledong]

I am not disagreeing with you happy I am just saying the regs say ,that's
All
And even if they are in the location they are outside the zones

 

[Andy78]

701.411.3.3 should, why should ,
The fittings are outside of the zone
So it the ceiling was 4 metres high you would still think.it's in the zone

I have no idea why you are wittering on about zones any more. Section 701 is perfectly clear to me regarding RCD protection of circuits. Tell me what are confused about and I will try and help you.

 

[Octopus]

I think he's getting his location and zones muddled

 

[Silly Sausage]

The zones dictate what kind of of gear you can use within them.
The location is the bathroom, to which is what the RCD requirement relates to.

They've got differnt regs in the Wild West. :smilielol5:

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I like the way you ask questions though Dingle, it's better than not giving a damn. But I have a feeling that once you've made your mind up its difficult to change it. I think I was like that in my 20's and 30's and then I realised how little I actually knew/know and started really trying to listen to what everyone was saying.

Keep asking your questions chap :smiley2:

 

[Silly Sausage]

I like the way you ask questions though Dingle, ...............

Don't succumb to that horse whispering HHD!

 

[telectrix]

never mind , dingle. one day essex will have the privilege of horseless carriages.

 

[The General]

I think we can always play around with words General to suit our arguments. I suppose we could say that you could have a push light switch on the wall of the bathroom as the actual electrics will be in the wall, not in the bathroom.

I think sometimes you have to just think about what is the right way to do it.... A bathroom is full of steam, we are soaking wet... we need an RCD.

Not disagreeing! I did put an RCD, but I was just reflecting about it afterwards and wanted to sound it out for some other opinions.
thanks for all comments and advice!

 

[telectrix]

you did well, young skywalker.

 

[telectrix]

becoming a good spark you will be.

 

[The General]

becoming a good spark you will be.

Stop it, you must. Struggling to think of witty reply, I am

 

[havo one]

hi guys 1st post, judging by the fact theres old wylex fuses & old voltage trip then id imagine theres no main equipotential bonding. if theres no main equipotntial bonding then there would need to be supplementary bonding connecting circuit cpcs of the location to any exposed extraneous conductive parts. this is what we have to do on a regular basis. reg 701.415.2

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think that the fact that the Regulation states: 'circuits of the location', that it is pretty clear that the Regulation refers to the circuits of the location.
It may even be argued that circuits which pass through the location are also covered by this Regulation, as they used to be in the 16th edition.
I would have thought that it is fairly clear that the zones do not define the location, as there is a Regulation relating to the placement of socket-outlets outside of the zones.

 

[Richard Burns]

I think that the fact that the Regulation states: 'circuits of the location', that it is pretty clear that the Regulation refers to the circuits of the location.
It may even be argued that circuits which pass through the location are also covered by this Regulation, as they used to be in the 16th edition.
I would have thought that it is fairly clear that the zones do not define the location, as there is a Regulation relating to the placement of socket-outlets outside of the zones.

Good answer, one I could not gather myself to post.

Where did you spring back from?:leaving::smiley2:

 

[dingledong]

Will look today as I keep my book in the van

 

[Doomed]

I thought that one of the changes in the upcoming amendment was to ensure RCD protection on any circuit that passes in or through a bathroom to make sure that lights were now RCD protected, which implies that previously they didn't have to be. (Note: I always RCD protect them, I'm just raising a point, don't lynch me)

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think Doomed that the original intent was for such circuits to be protected, but it has been misinterpreted. The amendment would be there to redress the misinterpretation.

 

[jaypp]

I thought that one of the changes in the upcoming amendment was to ensure RCD protection on any circuit that passes in or through a bathroom to make sure that lights were now RCD protected, which implies that previously they didn't have to be. (Note: I always RCD protect them, I'm just raising a point, don't lynch me)

I heard this too. Would this mean, for example, if you were to carry out work in a premises where the board was located under a bathroom and circuits (not being related to works carried out) passed through this location, that RCD protection would have to be provided for non-works related circuits also?

 

[Knobhead]

Here we go again, IET speak Vs common sense.

Only the IET could issue a clarification that causes confusion.

 

[Octopus]

Here we go again, IET speak Vs common sense.

Only the IET could issue a clarification that causes confusion.

Said it before, will say it again.

The IET should get the plain english society to review the regs before the update is printed!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Said it before, will say it again.

The IET should get the plain english society to review the regs before the update is printed!

I would be happy to undertake that task for a small fee and could even translate it into Geordie with a bit of help from Wor Lad Trev.

 

[Octopus]

I would be happy to undertake that task for a small fee and could even translate it into Geordie with a bit of help from Wor Lad Trev.

Then no bxgger south of the Watford Gap would understand it!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Then no bxgger south of the Watford Gap would understand it!

Then my work here would be complete!!

Just think man - if none of the southern jessies could understand it they wouldn't be able to work and WE would be gannin doon there and grabbing it all.

 

[Richo77]

I would say the special location is the whole bathroom. The different zones indicate the ip rated equipment that can be used in a particular zone. Whole bathroom I.e. Special location, all circuits need RCD protection. That's how I determine it

 

[Silly Sausage]

Then my work here would be complete!!

Just think man - if none of the southern jessies could understand it they wouldn't be able to work and WE would be gannin doon there and grabbing it all.

Three quarters of them can't understand it as it is

 

[dingledong]

Beat me to it
but when you lot go independent and we build a big trench right through the Watford gap then it will be to late to rape and pillage in England Archie

 

[Mike Blair]

here is one. the DB has a rcd covering all circuits but the lighting circuits. the bathroom is classed as a special zone so the lighting in the bathroom needs to be rcd protected "lighting in zone 2,3". what are your thoughts on putting an rcd spur outside the bathroom next to the fan isolator for example?

 

[Andy78]

here is one. the DB has a rcd covering all circuits but the lighting circuits. the bathroom is classed as a special zone so the lighting in the bathroom needs to be rcd protected "lighting in zone 2,3". what are your thoughts on putting an rcd spur outside the bathroom next to the fan isolator for example?

I think it will look quite pretty next to the fan isolator. Are you connecting anything into it ? If so, what are your thoughts on this with reference to compliance with the regulations ?

 

[Mike Blair]

i did this with ip65 downlights in a home that did not have any rcd's "old re-wireables " i did a post a while back on here. tbh i hope one day rcbo's become really cheap so we could just have every circuit on its own. saves half or all circuits going off at one time XD

reading threw a document from a site it says

Zone 0 is inside the bath or shower itself. Any fitting used in this zone must be low voltage, (max 12v) and be rated at least IP67 which is total immersion proof.
Zone 1 is the area above the bath to a height of 2.25m from the floor. In this zone a
minimum rating of IP44 is required. If the fitting is 240v a 30ma residual current device
(RCD) must also be used to protect the circuit in this zone.
Zone 2 is an area stretching 0.6m outside the perimeter of the bath and to a height of
2.25m from the floor. In this zone an IP rating of at least IP44 is required. In addition it
is good practice to consider the area around a wash basin, within a 60cm radius of any
tap to be
considered as zone 2.
Zone 3 is anywhere outside zones 0,1 and 2 (subject to specific limits) and where no
water jet is likely to be used. No IP rating is required. In addition to the above, if there is
a likelihood of water jets being used for cleaning purpose in zones 1,2 and 3 a fitting
rated a minimum IP65 must be used

 

[Octopus]

Err zone 3??