RCD requirements for old install

[Ratmeister]

I'm a property owner who is needing to get an old electrical installation NICEIC certified.

One of the buildings is a small office block with 6 small offices. The offices aren't currently being used commercially, this certification is just for insurance reasons.

The main fuse box is an old type one with rewirable fuses. It also has an Economy 7 fuse box, again with rewirable fuses. These would have been installed to the guidelines at the time which was probably about 30 years ago.

The electrician is saying because there is no RCD protection on these fuse boxes, both of them need replaced at substantial cost. Is this correct?

 

[westward10]

Generally I would Code 3 the lack of additional RCD protection in most circumstances. A commercial installation having BS3036 semi-enclosed fuses (rewireable) must be of some age however this does not necessarily mean it is unsafe. Being of such an age it is doubtful it satisfies the needs for a modern office environment so has it undergone alterations.

 

[Ratmeister]

Generally I would Code 3 the lack of additional RCD protection in most circumstances. A commercial installation having BS3036 semi-enclosed fuses (rewireable) must be of some age however this does not necessarily mean it is unsafe. Being of such an age it is doubtful it satisfies the needs for a modern office environment so has it undergone alterations.

It hasn't been used commercially for nearly 20 years. It has had some DIY modifications recently as it is currently being used by us as a home office/storage of old items we don't use.

 

[littlespark]

If nothing untoward, then agree, a C3.
This will still bring a “satisfactory” outcome to the report. That’s all the insurance will be worried about.

 

[westward10]

What is the floor area of the small offices because if they are very small the existing installation may satisfy any tenant.

 

[brianmoooore]

Assuming that there's little possibility of plugged in equipment being used outdoors, then C3. The regs require that the installation was installed in accordance with the regs at the time, any alterations were done to the regs at the the time they were made, and that nothing has deteriorated to the state of being unsatisfactory.
I would, however, add a note to the EICR, recommending that the fusegear be upgraded to include RCDs.

 

[Ratmeister]

What is the floor area of the small offices because if they are very small the existing installation may satisfy any tenant.

The entire block is only about 60 m squared.

 

[Ratmeister]

Assuming that there's little possibility of plugged in equipment being used outdoors, then C3. The regs require that the installation was installed in accordance with the regs at the time, any alterations were done to the regs at the the time they were made, and that nothing has deteriorated to the state of being unsatisfactory.
I would, however, add a note to the EICR, recommending that the fusegear be upgraded to include RCDs.

If some of our DIY mods needed fixed or we needed to repair some other things, is it okay?
Or do you have to then upgrade eveything if any repair is needed?

 

[westward10]

The problem with getting an EICR done in this day and age is that the market is flooded with incompetent people who really shouldn't be undertaking them this includes members of the NICEIC and others. The chances of you finding someone who does not judge the lack of additional RCD protection as being the end of the world is slim. That said there may well be other factors which would render the installation as being unsatisfactory.

 

[Ratmeister]

The problem with getting an EICR done in this day and age is that the market is flooded with incompetent people who really shouldn't be undertaking them this includes members of the NICEIC and others. The chances of you finding someone who does not judge the lack of additional RCD protection as being the end of the world is slim. That said there may well be other factors which would render the installation as being unsatisfactory.

I don’t mind paying to fix any other areas that may need fixed if it’s unsatisfactory. It’s just that the fuse boxes are obviously a major cost and RCD was the reason given.

Why would Economy 7 sockets need RCD protection if the leads to the heaters cannot be removed?

If any sockets were added in the last 5 years or any of the diy mods were needing changed would this mean the entire installation should conform to today’s regulations?

 

[westward10]

If someone has added socket outlets in the last five years they should have put additional RCD protection in place.

 

[Risteard]

The regs require that the installation was installed in accordance with the regs at the time, any alterations were done to the regs at the the time they were made

I'm not sure that I'd entirely agree with that statement.

 

[brianmoooore]

If some of our DIY mods needed fixed or we needed to repair some other things, is it okay?
Or do you have to then upgrade eveything if any repair is needed?

What constitutes a repair? Common sense needs to be applied.
Changing a damaged socket for a new one is a like for like repair, and is allowed, but if the repair consists of removing something that was fitted not in accordance with the regulations, then that is allowed, but if you then reinstate what was remove, that has to be in accordance with current regs.
I've come across this conundrum many times when I've been asked to 'move' a socket. I've explained to the customer that removing a socket is one job, and fitting a socket is another, which needs to be to current regs.

 

[Ratmeister]

Upgrading the main fuse box is probably a sensible thing to do by the sounds of it. I'd imagine it will make the place easier to sell as well.

The Economy 7 fuse box is a different matter though. This installation has defintely not been touched and the sockets feeding the heaters can't be used to plug anything else in. Does everyone agree this is just a C3?

 

[davesparks]

The regs require that the installation was installed in accordance with the regs at the time,

No they don't, the current regulations don't make any such requirement of old installations.
The only requirement the current regulations make of old installations is that they be inspected and tested at appropriate intervals.

The report which is issued should identify defects, damage, deterioration and areas where our understanding, technology and the regulations have changed and safety improvements can or should be made.

 

[davesparks]

Upgrading the main fuse box is probably a sensible thing to do by the sounds of it. I'd imagine it will make the place easier to sell as well.

If you are selling a commercial building it is unlikely to make much difference as the new owners will most likely alter/adapt the building to their purposes anyway and possibly remove whatever new DB is installed.

The Economy 7 fuse box is a different matter though. This installation has defintely not been touched and the sockets feeding the heaters can't be used to plug anything else in. Does everyone agree this is just a C3?

It's very hard to give a firm judgement on a code without actually seeing the installation, there could be any number of factors involved which you may not realise are important to mention.
If the heaters are plugged into sockets then they can be unplugged and used to plug something else in, it's just a question of whether anyone would do this during the E7 hours.
Plus it is very unusual for storage heaters to he connected via a socket, this may well be a cause to look a little deeper into the installation in itself.

 

[brianmoooore]

Where the regs at the time of installation differ from those that are current, C3s, improvement recommended, will be generated on any EICR undertaken. These C3s will not normally lead to an 'unsatisfactory' report.

 

[Ratmeister]

If you are selling a commercial building it is unlikely to make much difference as the new owners will most likely alter/adapt the building to their purposes anyway and possibly remove whatever new DB is installed.


It's very hard to give a firm judgement on a code without actually seeing the installation, there could be any number of factors involved which you may not realise are important to mention.
If the heaters are plugged into sockets then they can be unplugged and used to plug something else in, it's just a question of whether anyone would do this during the E7 hours.
Plus it is very unusual for storage heaters to he connected via a socket, this may well be a cause to look a little deeper into the installation in itself.

The E7 heaters can't be unplugged. I probably mean they are E7 power switches, not sockets. We have E7 heaters in a few buildings and they're all the same, the power lead from the heater is fixed and comes out the front of the switch.

 

[davesparks]

Where the regs at the time of installation differ from those that are current, C3s, improvement recommended, will be generated on any EICR undertaken.

Not necessarily, if there is no safety improvement to be made then no code should be given (eg pre-harmonisation colours) but if it is potentially dangerous then it will be reported as a C2 (eg unlinked fuse or circuit breaker in the neutral)

 

[brianmoooore]

Testing and allocation of coding should not be entirely a 'tick box' exercise. There will occasionally be things where the tester's expertise is used to declare a particular item as unsatisfactory.
This is a thread in DIY, not a deep intellectual discussion hidden in 'the Arms'.