Replacing fire alarm system- siting of MCPs in flats

[monkeyhanger]

Hello, thanks for any advice-

I have serviced a fire alarm in a 3 story victorian building / converted to self contained flats (prior to 1991) for some time.

We have the job of renewing the fire alarm system. The old one is staying in place until the new one is online (no rush).

In most of the flats I've ever worked, the MCPs on landings have been on the zone for the communal stairs, or the building has been zoned Ground floor / first floor/ second floor with everything on one floor on one zone. However after completing an FIA course over a year ago, I believe I was told that (preferably?) in such a case as this (2 flats per floor, 3 storey, 2 flats open on to every landing) each flat should be on its own zone- and the communal staircase on its own zone, and the MCPs should be located WITHIN the zone they should apply to, e.g. instead of having 1 call point on each landing and one at the final exit on the ground floor, there would be one inside the entrance door of each flat- (and one at the ground floor exit door)- x7 MCPs in total.

I have never came across a system where the MCPs were located inside the flats (e.g. in this case it means 7x MCPs in total instead of 3, and persuading tenants to let us drop trunking down inside).. as far as I can remember. What is the acceptable way of siting the MCPs / zoning the system in this case? (This is a mixed system, the communal FA consisting only of heat detectors to entrance lobbys & kitchens, smoke detectors to stairs, + MCPs)

The system is being replaced as part of works to tidy the place up- previously two generations of TV aerial cables, door entry system, fire alarm, emergency lighting, virgin media, BT etc have all been clipped hap-hazardly all over the communal hallways and landings and it is easier to replace than to tidy it up (old FA zones cabled in T&E with 15 layers of paint etc)


Any thoughts on this?

 

[Plonker 3]

Tazz is the person on here with the knowledge of FA so may be worth waiting till he is online and replying. He's a good egg so will try and help as much as he can.

 

[tazz]

Well hope the system is not wire in T&E, as it needs to be fp rated....as to the flats, if they are self contained, then they will be dwelling of their own ...so mains/battery detection linked in each individual flat is required....the landlords area ie staircas etc, will be be required to have a full fire alarm system..there is no reason to have call point in each flat, nor link the mains detection into the landlords system, as the two must run separatly.The FIA are correct that a staircase is just one zone, as it is continuous through the core, but unless you are using an addressable system this cannot be defined. So on a conventional system, a zone per floor would be required

 

[monkeyhanger]

Thanks.

Yes, the existing communal fire alarm system zones are wired in T&E (sounders in FP) but this system is what we are replacing.

Individual flats already have D/LD2 smoke & heat detectors installed (aico type) which we have no intention of linking to the communal fire alarm due to false alarms.

The replacement communal FA will consist of sounders / smokes on stairs & landings / & heat detectors with sounder bases inside the main door to each flat. The last fire risk assessment (carried out by a big local company) also recommended heat detectors in kitchens on the communal alarm. There will be stand alone sounders to bedrooms where needed to acheive 75db at bed head.

I intended to zone the flats individually, especially as there are only 6, so that if there is a fault or problem in a flat it can be disabled without affecting everyone else.. while we try to arrange access. The existing system is zoned
1 Ground floor (2 flats and hallway with MCP at exit)
2 First floor (2 flats and landing with MCP)
3 Second floor (2 flats and landing with MCP).


By what I could gather on the FIA course (time allowing!) was that in such instances a new system here should be zoned e.g.
Zone 1-6 flats 1-6
Zone 7 communal stairs/landings/hallway
- and was told that it is preferable to site MCPs on the accommodation side e.g. if there is a fire in Flat 2, they activate the MCP on the way out and "Flat 2" will display at the panel- as opposed to "communal stairs" if the MCPs were on that zone. As the fire wouldn't be on the communal stairs! But this does seem over the top to me.. but if this is by the book that is what I'll do.

I did ask the question regarding zoning such buildings as we have worked in quite a few where they have gone by floor- despite having an open communal stairs up the middle. I was told that this was the wrong way to do it (although ok to leave an existing system like that as it is)-
I was told to keep the communal stairs "vertical flue like structure" on their own zone.

I am very confused about where I should put MCPs. If they are on the landings I can't zone them with the flats as the two flats on each landing will be different zones.. if I follow what I was told and zone the communal stairs as its own zone & wire the MCPs off that zone.. then the MCPs aren't zoned 'with the accommodation'... it seems like any way I can do it is contradictory to something I was told!

 

[monkeyhanger]

"The FIA are correct that a staircase is just one zone, as it is continuous through the core, but unless you are using an addressable system this cannot be defined. So on a conventional system, a zone per floor would be required"

Sorry to query but I think I'm missing something! Surely if the staircase is one zone it CAN be done on a conventional system by cabling it that way?
Which leaves me with the predicament of which advice to follow from the FIA on where to site & zone the MCPs from :/

- Thanks for advice

 

[tazz]

I would get the local BC in to revalue the risk assessment....This sounds over the top, with assessment suited for a hotel BS5839 Part 1 , more than a flat dwelling Part 6. There is no requirement to put mcp`s in flats, they should be installed on each level. Again there is no requirement to reach 75db at the bed head, nor to fit sounders and heat detection in each flat. The idea is to make each flat self contained, with its own system, and to protect the common circulation areas on a full system. the staircase itself is the void zone, with the landing area being an adjacent zone, this uses up valued zones on a conventional system, and is often ignored and argued, that it is better to display the level number, again unless you are using addressable were the text would display zone (staircase) and then device text (first floor) The requirements you need to be looking at are BS5839 part 6 Grade D for the flats, and Grade A for the circulation areas. Grade A is virtually the same as part 1, with the difference of 72 hours battery backup instead of 24 hours

 

[monkeyhanger]

Thanks, (MCPs) it does seem over the top and I only considered it due to FIA instructors advice, which seemed to be contradictory to other things he said.

I would have thought it necessary to have 75db at bed heads, if I lived there I would like to think I'd be woken up if there was a fire anywhere in the building! This has been a very large building with many uses in its time and was converted to 6x flats sometime in what is believed to be the early / mid 80s. Where ceilings have been dropped, you can remove some floor boards in the flats above, and there are areas (such as where chimney breasts have been removed etc) where the lathe & plaster ceilings are missing- e.g. you have 1 layer of plasterboard on the flat below and then the floorboards in the flat you are in! (There is no acoustic insulation etc).

What has been requested is pretty much inline with what is recommended in this guide I've just came across

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...RIAvjIYJ-WT-yqw&bvm=bv.73231344,d.bGQ&cad=rja

"Buildings converted into self-contained flats"
"Case study D11: Three- or four-storey building
converted into self-contained flats (see figure D11)"

See page 49 of PDF.

However I will see if the landlord can arrange a second opinion

 

[monkeyhanger]

I notice this guide states-
"Simple multi-purpose fire
extinguisher in common parts
on each floor and fire blanket in
each kitchen (recommended
good practice)"

The extinguishers and fire blankets are something else which a fire risk assessor had recommended and the landlord has had these for quite some time-.. having fire blankets in individual flats does seem a little over the top!

 

[tazz]

The 75db rule is for hotels part 1, the whole idea here, is safety from false alarms, making each flat separate, and responsible for a fire within its dwelling. And not having 4 families, trying to escape down one set of stairs, because old Mrs Brown in flat 2 burnt the toast. If there is a fire within a flat, the grade D system will awake them, and a decision can then be made to raise the alarm or deal with the false alarm. If this was a multi store block of flats, the risk assessment would require no common fire alarm, as this would course injuries escaping. A sit a wait policy would be used here.

 

[monkeyhanger]

I'm lost now!

It is a mixed system, with part 6 (D) inside individual flats and part 1 (A) communal - operating side by side but not linked together.

Each flat has a seperate grade D system- inside, not linked to any other flat or anything else. The grade D system has a smoke detector inside the flat. This won't disturb other flats if there is a false alarm but it will alert the occupant of the flat it is sited in.

The communal hallway and 2x landings have a grade A system, with smoke detectors on the escape route, and a heat detector inside each flats entrance door (rooms opening onto the escape route). This seems to be common practice around where I live, and recommended for this type of building in a few different guides (3 story converted to flats prior to 1991 building regs, poor fire compartmentation etc).

What would be the point in a fire alarm that's only guaranteed to be heard on the stairs where the fire is? You wouldn't have to walk very far to realise there was a fire anyway. There wouldn't be any false alarms from burnt toast etc as the communal fire alarm detection in the flat is a heat detector inside the entrance door (rooms adjoining the escape route).

I've seen the last 2 fire risk assessments and notices, and the policy in the building isn't to stay put in the event of a fire but to leave immediately upon hearing the alarm.

I think you've misunderstood what I mean.

Thanks anyway

 

[tazz]

I'm lost now!

It is a mixed system, with part 6 (D) inside individual flats and part 1 (A) communal - operating side by side but not linked together. Correct

Each flat has a seperate grade D system- inside, not linked to any other flat or anything else. The grade D system has a smoke detector inside the flat. This won't disturb other flats if there is a false alarm but it will alert the occupant of the flat it is sited in. Correct

The communal hallway and 2x landings have a grade A system, with smoke detectors on the escape route, and a heat detector inside each flats entrance door (rooms opening onto the escape route). This seems to be common practice around where I live, and recommended for this type of building in a few different guides (3 story converted to flats prior to 1991 building regs, poor fire compartmentation etc). Controlled Document B 2007 and new EN54 2012...But Local BC will have final say.

What would be the point in a fire alarm that's only guaranteed to be heard on the stairs where the fire is? You wouldn't have to walk very far to realise there was a fire anyway. There wouldn't be any false alarms from burnt toast etc as the communal fire alarm detection in the flat is a heat detector inside the entrance door (rooms adjoining the escape route). Again Local BC to state

I've seen the last 2 fire risk assessments and notices, and the policy in the building isn't to stay put in the event of a fire but to leave immediately upon hearing the alarm. Risk assessments have shown fire alarms are not required in multi storey dwellings, and the sit and wait proceedure is standard practice in the UK

I think you've misunderstood what I mean.

Thanks anyway

The are a few issues showing up here, and suggest BC are called in to confirm. The use of double lined 12mm plasterboard is required for ceilings, the use of heat detection in entrance areas is down again to local BC. Two problems are showing here, regs and practical risk assessment. You need to consider containment of fire, by building construction, reduced false alarm activation, the means of safe escape without panic and inproved safe passage...all covered in doc B....I really suggest before going any further, that your local BC are informed for their advice, they will have the final say no matter......please keep us informed, as this is a common area , where problems arise. and will help you as well as others

 

[monkeyhanger]

The are a few issues showing up here, and suggest BC are called in to confirm. The use of double lined 12mm plasterboard is required for ceilings, the use of heat detection in entrance areas is down again to local BC. Two problems are showing here, regs and practical risk assessment. You need to consider containment of fire, by building construction, reduced false alarm activation, the means of safe escape without panic and inproved safe passage...all covered in doc B....I really suggest before going any further, that your local BC are informed for their advice, they will have the final say no matter......please keep us informed, as this is a common area , where problems arise. and will help you as well as others

From works we have done here in the past I know for sure that ceilings aren't double lined 12mm, but perhaps this was done before this was a requirement? - or done poorly, e.g. not patching up the damaged lathe and plaster of the existing ceilings before introducing another ceiling below

The heat detector inside the entrance to each flat (on communal fire alarm) couldn't be a smoke detector as four of the flats have kitchens or bathrooms which lead onto the entrance hallway in close proximity to the flats entrance door. If only heat detectors inside flats are part of the communal FA I don't think false alarms would be a problem (and they haven't been on the existing system). There is also an external fire escape for the top floor and the flats are normally single occupancy- i wouldn't consider means of escape an issue.

I will update you on what BC have to say after the landlord has been in touch, according to the landlord they have had this all out before with the relevant parties, - in the early 90s and a few times since!

 

[monkeyhanger]

"Risk assessments have shown fire alarms are not required in multi storey dwellings, and the sit and wait proceedure is standard practice in the UK"

Perhaps in purpose built flats or those converted to current building regulations, this does not apply here

 

[tazz]

I used this as an example of how a risk assessment in Part 6 dwellings, wont always tie up with a Part 1 FIA course. I deal with BC on a daily basis, and I am 98% sure they will give you the same rulings as I have listed....But as with any individual inspector 2% will have added ideas of their own.

 

[Poult12]

"Risk assessments have shown fire alarms are not required in multi storey dwellings, and the sit and wait proceedure is standard practice in the UK"

Perhaps in purpose built flats or those converted to current building regulations, this does not apply here

Would say the 'sit & wait procedure you've noted is for New builds - as they are using better fire resistant materials compared to before 2000. We have the same in my flat block even though i told them clearly to do one on that. (Prestatyn fire - where my cousin died came to mind)

I've always worked on FIA standards - however Tazz certainly knows what he's talking about. I thought 75dbs at bed head was the norm but clearly not.

MCPs in flats - like Tazz said if the dwelling is separate to the others - would assume he means a separate entrance to the flats instead of a communal area to the building?

I see what you're installing/planning to - Knightstone Housing or Curo were doing roughly the same with communal & flat lobby coverage. Then domestic linked detectors within the rest of the flat.

 

[tazz]

The sit & wait to be rescued goes back to the 80`s...and is for high raised dwellings/flats. It has always been an arguable method, but BS, FIA and fire service are sticking to it, as the best method, of dealing with a fire in high raised dwellings..........Remember, and FIA course is for commercial property Part 1, which includes hotels hostels factories etc....When its livable accommodation its Part 6 and the local BC have a policy to reduce false alarms, which tend courses accidents, ignoring the alarm and distress....therefore each flat is responsible for their own alarm and actions.

 

[monkeyhanger]

The local fire officer has paid a visit, and confirmed that a grade A system is required with smokes on stairs and heats in flatsl! Grade D LD3 inside flats are required, not linked to other flats (LD2 already fitted in this building)

Single standard plasterboard ceilings fine to leave as they are as building regs not retrospective.

Escape route has 30min protection and the policy is to get out if the alarm goes off, not sit and wait (its 3 story and takes less than a minute to get down the stairs from the 2nd floor).

He actually had plans of the building and had been before. He pointed us towards LACORS fire safety guidance (link I posted earlier in this thread) but although it is recommended in the guide he advised us to remove the existing water fire extinguishers from each landing incase they should be used on the wrong type of fire.

For future reference in this case, I would recommend anyone seeking guidance to consult the LACORS fire safety guide. In this instance 'Buildings converted into self-contained
flats" section was appropriate. It can be found here-
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...b3AnzqFkRIAvjIYJ-WT-yqw&bvm=bv.73612305,d.d2s

 

[tazz]

This is unusual, but you have to go with local BC and not fire officer....so conclusion is if this is cleared with BC then you have to comply. And fit what is stated. Can I ask which council you are dealing with for reference.

 

[monkeyhanger]

This is unusual, but you have to go with local BC and not fire officer....so conclusion is if this is cleared with BC then you have to comply. And fit what is stated. Can I ask which council you are dealing with for reference.

The landlord has not had a response from the council as yet.
Hartlepool

 

[tazz]

With all respect...this is what worries me... BC will have final decision over a local fire officer...Hartle pool BC are the final say...weather I am correct or not...their decision will be final