Replacing fire alarm system- siting of MCPs in flats

[tazz]

I'm lost now!

It is a mixed system, with part 6 (D) inside individual flats and part 1 (A) communal - operating side by side but not linked together. Correct

Each flat has a seperate grade D system- inside, not linked to any other flat or anything else. The grade D system has a smoke detector inside the flat. This won't disturb other flats if there is a false alarm but it will alert the occupant of the flat it is sited in. Correct

The communal hallway and 2x landings have a grade A system, with smoke detectors on the escape route, and a heat detector inside each flats entrance door (rooms opening onto the escape route). This seems to be common practice around where I live, and recommended for this type of building in a few different guides (3 story converted to flats prior to 1991 building regs, poor fire compartmentation etc). Controlled Document B 2007 and new EN54 2012...But Local BC will have final say.

What would be the point in a fire alarm that's only guaranteed to be heard on the stairs where the fire is? You wouldn't have to walk very far to realise there was a fire anyway. There wouldn't be any false alarms from burnt toast etc as the communal fire alarm detection in the flat is a heat detector inside the entrance door (rooms adjoining the escape route). Again Local BC to state

I've seen the last 2 fire risk assessments and notices, and the policy in the building isn't to stay put in the event of a fire but to leave immediately upon hearing the alarm. Risk assessments have shown fire alarms are not required in multi storey dwellings, and the sit and wait proceedure is standard practice in the UK

I think you've misunderstood what I mean.

Thanks anyway

The are a few issues showing up here, and suggest BC are called in to confirm. The use of double lined 12mm plasterboard is required for ceilings, the use of heat detection in entrance areas is down again to local BC. Two problems are showing here, regs and practical risk assessment. You need to consider containment of fire, by building construction, reduced false alarm activation, the means of safe escape without panic and inproved safe passage...all covered in doc B....I really suggest before going any further, that your local BC are informed for their advice, they will have the final say no matter......please keep us informed, as this is a common area , where problems arise. and will help you as well as others

 

[monkeyhanger]

The are a few issues showing up here, and suggest BC are called in to confirm. The use of double lined 12mm plasterboard is required for ceilings, the use of heat detection in entrance areas is down again to local BC. Two problems are showing here, regs and practical risk assessment. You need to consider containment of fire, by building construction, reduced false alarm activation, the means of safe escape without panic and inproved safe passage...all covered in doc B....I really suggest before going any further, that your local BC are informed for their advice, they will have the final say no matter......please keep us informed, as this is a common area , where problems arise. and will help you as well as others

From works we have done here in the past I know for sure that ceilings aren't double lined 12mm, but perhaps this was done before this was a requirement? - or done poorly, e.g. not patching up the damaged lathe and plaster of the existing ceilings before introducing another ceiling below

The heat detector inside the entrance to each flat (on communal fire alarm) couldn't be a smoke detector as four of the flats have kitchens or bathrooms which lead onto the entrance hallway in close proximity to the flats entrance door. If only heat detectors inside flats are part of the communal FA I don't think false alarms would be a problem (and they haven't been on the existing system). There is also an external fire escape for the top floor and the flats are normally single occupancy- i wouldn't consider means of escape an issue.

I will update you on what BC have to say after the landlord has been in touch, according to the landlord they have had this all out before with the relevant parties, - in the early 90s and a few times since!

 

[monkeyhanger]

"Risk assessments have shown fire alarms are not required in multi storey dwellings, and the sit and wait proceedure is standard practice in the UK"

Perhaps in purpose built flats or those converted to current building regulations, this does not apply here

 

[tazz]

I used this as an example of how a risk assessment in Part 6 dwellings, wont always tie up with a Part 1 FIA course. I deal with BC on a daily basis, and I am 98% sure they will give you the same rulings as I have listed....But as with any individual inspector 2% will have added ideas of their own.

 

[Poult12]

"Risk assessments have shown fire alarms are not required in multi storey dwellings, and the sit and wait proceedure is standard practice in the UK"

Perhaps in purpose built flats or those converted to current building regulations, this does not apply here

Would say the 'sit & wait procedure you've noted is for New builds - as they are using better fire resistant materials compared to before 2000. We have the same in my flat block even though i told them clearly to do one on that. (Prestatyn fire - where my cousin died came to mind)

I've always worked on FIA standards - however Tazz certainly knows what he's talking about. I thought 75dbs at bed head was the norm but clearly not.

MCPs in flats - like Tazz said if the dwelling is separate to the others - would assume he means a separate entrance to the flats instead of a communal area to the building?

I see what you're installing/planning to - Knightstone Housing or Curo were doing roughly the same with communal & flat lobby coverage. Then domestic linked detectors within the rest of the flat.

 

[tazz]

The sit & wait to be rescued goes back to the 80`s...and is for high raised dwellings/flats. It has always been an arguable method, but BS, FIA and fire service are sticking to it, as the best method, of dealing with a fire in high raised dwellings..........Remember, and FIA course is for commercial property Part 1, which includes hotels hostels factories etc....When its livable accommodation its Part 6 and the local BC have a policy to reduce false alarms, which tend courses accidents, ignoring the alarm and distress....therefore each flat is responsible for their own alarm and actions.

 

[monkeyhanger]

The local fire officer has paid a visit, and confirmed that a grade A system is required with smokes on stairs and heats in flatsl! Grade D LD3 inside flats are required, not linked to other flats (LD2 already fitted in this building)

Single standard plasterboard ceilings fine to leave as they are as building regs not retrospective.

Escape route has 30min protection and the policy is to get out if the alarm goes off, not sit and wait (its 3 story and takes less than a minute to get down the stairs from the 2nd floor).

He actually had plans of the building and had been before. He pointed us towards LACORS fire safety guidance (link I posted earlier in this thread) but although it is recommended in the guide he advised us to remove the existing water fire extinguishers from each landing incase they should be used on the wrong type of fire.

For future reference in this case, I would recommend anyone seeking guidance to consult the LACORS fire safety guide. In this instance 'Buildings converted into self-contained
flats" section was appropriate. It can be found here-
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...b3AnzqFkRIAvjIYJ-WT-yqw&bvm=bv.73612305,d.d2s

 

[tazz]

This is unusual, but you have to go with local BC and not fire officer....so conclusion is if this is cleared with BC then you have to comply. And fit what is stated. Can I ask which council you are dealing with for reference.

 

[monkeyhanger]

This is unusual, but you have to go with local BC and not fire officer....so conclusion is if this is cleared with BC then you have to comply. And fit what is stated. Can I ask which council you are dealing with for reference.

The landlord has not had a response from the council as yet.
Hartlepool

 

[tazz]

With all respect...this is what worries me... BC will have final decision over a local fire officer...Hartle pool BC are the final say...weather I am correct or not...their decision will be final