Service head EICR

[Igor Taranenko]

Hi everyone,

Completed EICR for property recently and found there is a hole in the service head on neutral side, meaning live parts accessible by a finger. Photo attached.

Does anyone knows best way to repair it? I've tried to find replacement element but couldn't find anything.

Many thanks

 

[Teddy Lop]

You mean the TNC-s earth connection point?

 

[Deleted account]

Hi everyone,

Completed EICR for property recently and found there is a hole in the service head on neutral side, meaning live parts accessible by a finger. Photo attached.

Does anyone knows best way to repair it? I've tried to find replacement element but couldn't find anything.

Many thanks

Incoming fuse is responsibility of DNOs. You cannot fix It if broke Or dangerous.

if your concerned Contact the distribution network.

see what they say??

 

[Igor Taranenko]

You mean the TNC-s earth connection point?

Yes)

 

[Deleted account]

Yes)

Did you code it?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Black tape

 

[James]

Black tape

Should it not be green/yellow tape?
?

 

[Deleted account]

In all seriousness. This is a bit concerning.

I’m not sure what to say?

a bit gobsmacked in fact.

 

[DefyG]

put a blob of silicone in that'll improve the IP rating - colour code like James says (post #7)
G/Y for the earth part and Blue for the Neutral part.

But seriously its a DNO problem (one that they will never attend to)

 

[Dustydazzler]

Running low on G/Y

Got plenty of black and yellow phase tape thou

 

[Lister1987]

Annex 1.7 of the MOCOPA Guide Version 3.5 entitled "A guide for MOCOPA on reporting and acting on Distribution Business Asset Issues" contains a lot of useful information with regards to cut out conditions, how to do them and what responses you can expect.

Code A07 (Exposed Live Conductor) is your closest fit and, as it is s category A code, should get someone to you with relative urgency.

While I can appreciate @Paignton pete stance saying it's DNO kit and as such outside our remit and we should not be attempting to fix or remedy, what we CAN do is raise the issue with the DNO on behalf of the customer as we have the requisite knowledge to speak to DNOs in thier terms. A customer won't have a clue what an MPAN is, or what a cutout is/does.

We can only note as far as practicable on the EICR BUT what can also do is add ancillary information and documents and educate the client

Throe together a risk assessment, print a copy of the MOCOPA GUIDE, keep it handy and include excerpts in your report.

 

[Deleted account]

Annex 1.7 of the MOCOPA Guide Version 3.5 entitled "A guide for MOCOPA on reporting and acting on Distribution Business Asset Issues" contains a lot of useful information with regards to cut out conditions, how to do them and what responses you can expect.

Code A07 (Exposed Live Conductor) is your closest fit and, as it is s category A code, should get someone to you with relative urgency.

While I can appreciate @Paignton pete stance saying it's DNO kit and as such outside our remit and we should not be attempting to fix or remedy, what we CAN do is raise the issue with the DNO on behalf of the customer as we have the requisite knowledge to speak to DNOs in thier terms. A customer won't have a clue what an MPAN is, or what a cutout is/does.

We can only note as far as practicable on the EICR BUT what can also do is add ancillary information and documents and educate the client

Throe together a risk assessment, print a copy of the MOCOPA GUIDE, keep it handy and include excerpts in your report.

@Lister1987 have a look at the picture and find the exposed live part.

I totally agree if there is an issue with the incoming then we do code it or report it or both.
if it’s an immediately dangerous situation I would not leave site until the issue was resolved or I had handed it over to the DNO.

In this instance with this incoming supply what do you see and how would you code it?

 

[westward10]

The terminal would be deemed a live conductor but we know it is the PEN terminal, I wouldn't even comment on it. Some heads have this terminal exposed outside of the enclosure.

 

[telectrix]

if in doubt just bung a bit of blu tac in the hole. or Gn/Y tac if theymake it.

 

[hasel5]

This is seen at a vast majority of cutouts and is normal practice. And TBH it does make me worry that some people that are carrying out EICRs don't have the understanding of what is required and how to code the so called issues

 

[loz2754]

What I'm seeing is a purposely designed knockout to enable connection of the earthing conductor.

 

[hasel5]

On a series7 cutout you get a removable plastic grommet but this is nearly alway missing

 

[UNG]

This is seen at a vast majority of cutouts and is normal practice. And TBH it does make me worry that some people that are carrying out EICRs don't have the understanding of what is required and how to code the so called issues

Unfortunately the 2391 coupled with the 2382 is sold as the magic ticket to doing EICR's add in a copy of codebreakers and your good to go without having any core electrical knowledge or qualification and the experience to back it up

 

[Igor Taranenko]

I'm totally aware that this is DNO related issue but based on my experience with them I know they won't come for this one.

Very recently doing another EICR I had high Ze reading on TNSsupply. DNO said they will confirm if TNCS is available and once it is they were happy for me to connect earth conductor to fusehead neutral connection point so they don't need to come over.

 

[Lister1987]

@Lister1987 have a look at the picture and find the exposed live part.

I totally agree if there is an issue with the incoming then we do code it or report it or both.
if it’s an immediately dangerous situation I would not leave site until the issue was resolved or I had handed it over to the DNO.

In this instance with this incoming supply what do you see and how would you code it?

If I'm being completely honest it's a C code at best BUT if I deemed it to be a potential danger to the client (read: kids) then I'd like out my arse to get the DNO there to make them sort out. Sure it's only a bung and likelihood of any poking anything in there when a fault condition exists is extremely low but my integrity is worth more to me than a miffed off DNO agent, I'd rather waste Thier time and get it sorted than do nothing and something bad happen

 

[westward10]

No Code and Regulations do not make allowances for children/kids.

 

[SJD]

So what about this one:

Apparently a new meter was fitted couple of months ago, and it seems the meter fitter taped up the earth block, rather than fit the insert/cover. The tape has now come off. The customer is sure that the cover was not missing before.

My guess is the part perhaps fell of during fuse removal, fell to the concrete floor below and cracked.

 

[UNG]

I'm totally aware that this is DNO related issue but based on my experience with them I know they won't come for this one.

You don't know unless you ask the DNO the question you have come on here with a concern about the service head yet you won't contact the DNO or their advice

Very recently doing another EICR I had high Ze reading on TNSsupply. DNO said they will confirm if TNCS is available and once it is they were happy for me to connect earth conductor to fusehead neutral connection point so they don't need to come over.

I would be requesting they came out to repair the TNS earth, the last time I had a major problem with a TNS connection it was found that half the street had no earth

Did you get the authorisation in writing before you created the TNCS connection, I would be very cautious if it was a verbal authorisation and you did not get the name and job title of the person authorising it

 

[Lister1987]

No Code and Regulations do not make allowances for children/kids.

You say that but they do have an affect on how the inspector would perceive risk, it's why we have an external influence code for persons; from children up to skilled person.

Does it make me a bad engineer for going outside of the guides and documents we're told to work to, or does it make me a more con-che-n-tious (can't spell the word) engineer for looking at the bigger picture and wanting to have a better understanding as to why things are the way they are, why we have cutouts like these and why a missing cover is acceptable on 1 area but not another; I'm thinking diverted neutral currents going into the property and that section that is accessible becoming live, sure it's s million to one chance but so long as I can say I've done what I can to sort it, then I sleep better, if the DNO want to shrug and walk away, that's on them.

 

[Igor Taranenko]

You don't know unless you ask the DNO the question you have come on here with a concern about the service head yet you won't contact the DNO or their advice

I would be requesting they came out to repair the TNS earth, the last time I had a major problem with a TNS connection it was found that half the street had no earth

Did you get the authorisation in writing before you created the TNCS connection, I would be very cautious if it was a verbal authorisation and you did not get the name and job title of the person authorising it

You right I don't know the answer if I don't contact DNO.

In regards to other job they had improved Ze as PME connection was not feasible. They had to dig up the street to find the fault.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

You say that but they do have an affect on how the inspector would perceive risk, it's why we have an external influence code for persons; from children up to skilled person.

Does it make me a bad engineer for going outside of the guides and documents we're told to work to, or does it make me a more con-che-n-tious (can't spell the word) engineer for looking at the bigger picture and wanting to have a better understanding as to why things are the way they are, why we have cutouts like these and why a missing cover is acceptable on 1 area but not another; I'm thinking diverted neutral currents going into the property and that section that is accessible becoming live, sure it's s million to one chance but so long as I can say I've done what I can to sort it, then I sleep better, if the DNO want to shrug and walk away, that's on them.

In a house full of bonded metalwork and earthed appliances, it's hard to see how covering up that small piece of exposed metal will be of benefit should the DNO's neutral go OC.

 

[hasel5]

Question to Op did you find any other deviations when doing the EICR ?
If so do you want to share on here?

 

[loz2754]

This is seen at a vast majority of cutouts and is normal practice. And TBH it does make me worry that some people that are carrying out EICRs don't have the understanding of what is required and how to code the so called issues

Indeed. Like in this photo:

This is no different from a safety point of view to the OP's photo. No code. No comment necessary.

 

[Deleted account]

You say that but they do have an affect on how the inspector would perceive risk, it's why we have an external influence code for persons; from children up to skilled person.

Does it make me a bad engineer for going outside of the guides and documents we're told to work to, or does it make me a more con-che-n-tious (can't spell the word) engineer for looking at the bigger picture and wanting to have a better understanding as to why things are the way they are, why we have cutouts like these and why a missing cover is acceptable on 1 area but not another; I'm thinking diverted neutral currents going into the property and that section that is accessible becoming live, sure it's s million to one chance but so long as I can say I've done what I can to sort it, then I sleep better, if the DNO want to shrug and walk away, that's on them.

It is a no code. Not even an observation. Not an issue. No potential dangerous Situation. No need to contact DNO.

The point I was trying to make earlier was that I am concerned, but not about the cutout,

I am concerned and gobsmacked that anyone carrying out EICRs would not know this Was normal for a cutout. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[loz2754]

It is a no code. Not even an observation. Not an issue. No potential dangerous Situation. No need to contact DNO.

The point I was trying to make earlier was that I am concerned, but not about the cutout,

I am concerned and gobsmacked that anyone carrying out EICRs would not know this Was normal for a cutout. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I know it's true that not any one of us sparkies knows everything and has come across every type of installation practice, but this reinforces a comment I, and others, have made in several different threads on the subject of EICRs and who should be doing them.
And that is, inspection and testing requires, not only technical knowledge gained through formal training, but actual experience of the types of installation that you are inspecting. This kind of experience only comes with time, and preferably working alongside someone who has that experience.
Without such experience, how can a person pass judgement and award an appropriate code?

This current thread is a case in point. To me, and to several others who have commented, it's obvious what the recommendation should be, and if you have to ask.......

 

[Igor Taranenko]

Question to Op did you find any other deviations when doing the EICR ?
If so do you want to share on here?

Apart from that there is no RCD protection on all circuits except one (kitchen ring). Circuit supplying bathroom (light, extractor, shaver socket) no rcd and no supplementary bonding present.
Client willing to upgrade consumer unit
Rest of the installation is fine with all visuals test result satisfactory.

 

[Dartlec]

So what about this one:

View attachment 83535

Apparently a new meter was fitted couple of months ago, and it seems the meter fitter taped up the earth block, rather than fit the insert/cover. The tape has now come off. The customer is sure that the cover was not missing before.

My guess is the part perhaps fell of during fuse removal, fell to the concrete floor below and cracked.

I'd say that once the service head is compromised compared to how it was originally installed, then it should be at least raised with the DNO so that they can decide whether the integrity as a whole is up to their standards - since it does belong to them. That way they do the risk assessment and take responsibility.

On an EICR you are ticking to say the service head is satisfactory (or not) after all - and without further investigation I'd not be 100% sure that there was no access to an actual live part in your case....

One I raised with the DNO just yesterday



where the shroud is coming away and although it's "only" the PEN stranded that is visible that may not be the case in the future - and I'd have no idea whether a long thin finger could reach other more dangerous parts.

Because the DNO equipment (service heads in particular) is usually kept at a distance from official training (at least at domestic level), it's sometimes hard to gain the experience or information necessary to do a proper risk assessment.

I'd happily do a course with the DNO that gave me some more insight - perhaps with the right to risk assess and pull fuses officially when needed (with temporary reseal to be checked by DNO staff if necessary) - and quicker access to resources when a problem occurs without having to wait in line on 105 with the householders who's kettle isn't working...

 

[Teddy Lop]

Because the DNO equipment (service heads in particular) is usually kept at a distance from official training (at least at domestic level), it's sometimes hard to gain the experience or information necessary to do a proper risk assessment.

I'd happily do a course with the DNO that gave me some more insight - perhaps with the right to risk assess and pull fuses officially when needed (with temporary reseal to be checked by DNO staff if necessary) - and quicker access to resources when a problem occurs without having to wait in line on 105 with the householders who's kettle isn't working...

If they trained and gave you their blessing then they'd be liable when something goes wrong, and when half your networks is so far past its service life its in many cases quite literally falling apart that's a big ask.

Much, much nicer for them and their shareholders to maintain the pretence that nobody ever touches it even though we all know its BS.

 

[Percyprod]

Never seen a non dno sparky wearing the official ppe for working on a cut out, ie rubber gauntlets, leather over gauntlets, full face visor, and non combustible clothing. Not saying dno empoyees always do.......

 

[telectrix]

i find that the most effective PPE is an apprentice. asuming your role of mentor, you stand behind him, but not in contact, as he pulls the fuse.

 

[Let me think]

i find that the most effective PPE is an apprentice. asuming your role of mentor, you stand behind him, but not in contact, as he pulls the fuse.

Did you not use to have Darth Maul, Darth Tyrannus and Darth Vader as your apprentices at one point?

 

[GBDamo]

It is a no code. Not even an observation. Not an issue. No potential dangerous Situation. No need to contact DNO.

The point I was trying to make earlier was that I am concerned, but not about the cutout,

I am concerned and gobsmacked that anyone carrying out EICRs would not know this Was normal for a cutout. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

To me this highlights an Issue I have with that whole section(1.0) of the inspection schedule.

It is not the responsibility of the electrician, we have no right to work on it yet we are supposed to have the knowledge to diagnose faults and record them and are expected to report them to the DNO.

This is their equipment, they charge for its use and should be responsible for monitoring its condition, you know, maybe a cursory once over once a year whilst reading the meter. ?

The dozens of interactions I've had with DNO faults have all been billed to the customer for my time, is this right?

Now back to the OP, is it fair to expect an inspector to have in depth and historic knowledge of the many, many intake and metering configurations and devices and be able to competently assess their condition?

It's not straight forward as no sane spark is going to start work on an installation with a smouldering intake but an exposed terminal?, a cracked cover?, unsupported tails?

It would be an interesting test case if for every certificate we issued we invoiced the DNO an inspection fee.

Rant over.

 

[telectrix]

Did you not use to have Darth Maul, Darth Tyrannus and Darth Vader as your apprentices at one point?

I taught them well, young Jedi. they are now all on the Dark side (of the moon, with Syd Barrett).