Smoke/heat alarms, linked or not

[haptism]

Ive been looking at Approved document B (Fire safety), cause im not sure if a smoke alarm in recent extension needs to be linked to a additional heat alarm in the existing adjacent kitchen. The new extension is adjacent to the old kitchen and no doors separate the two rooms.

Approved document B says (page 13, 1.13) "where the kitchen area is not separated from the stairway or circulation space by a door, then there should be a compatible interlinked heat alarm in the kitchen, in addition to whatever smoke alarms are needed in the circulation space".

So if anyone can help, what is a circulation space, is the circulation space in the room next to the kitchen ?, and does the smoke in the extension need to be linked to a new heat in the kitchen ?

Bear in mind that the kitchen is existing (but has been rewired), and the extension is a new addition. Cheers

 

[Octopus]

You or the client need to ask the BCO

 

[haptism]

You or the client need to ask the BCO

Apparently the customer has been told this by a BCO, although im not sure he's a council one or an independent (i.e graduate who has no clue). On the face of it the two rooms are next to each other, so if either alarm goes off independently it will be heard. I get that if smokes/heats are across more than one floor then its common sense to interconnect, but not if the room are adjacent. The approved doc B is not easy reading either; i dont know who to trust !

 

[Octopus]

My BCO's are insistent that they are all interlinked.

I would recommend you get said advice in writing ......

 

[westward10]

Circulation space in terms of fire protection will refer to hallways and landings or space which links defined rooms.

 

[haptism]

Circulation space in terms of fire protection will refer to hallways and landings or space which links defined rooms.

Thanks westward, thing is the entire kitchen area and new extension is open plan, by that i mean theres no doors, hallways, or any independent space linking the rooms. So in affect it could be considered the entire thing is one big room (except its not really because its an L shaped extension), and the kitchen is obviously a kitchen (for obvious reasons).

 

[Octopus]

You could just ignore the problem ................ but my crystal ball sees the customer blaming you if the BCO changes his mind

Get it in writing

 

[Toneyz]

As far as I know, all smoke & heat detectors should be linked together (wiring linked & radio) and be of the same make.
How is the existing wired eg off lighting circuit or dedicated circuit?
are they all linked and what make?

 

[westward10]

Without seeing it or a good plan it is difficult to say. So are you saying the entire ground floor is essentially one room.

 

[haptism]

This is how its panned out so far; in November a friend asked me to wire a new extension; an addition to the rear of the house.

I wired the extension and fitted a mains smoke alarm. All the while the old kitchen was still in use.

After the extension was complete the customer asks for kitchen to be rewired, I ask about the lights and recommend a heat detector be fitted. Customer says to wire kitchen first before lighting and heat, which I have now completed (in fact completed in December last year). The lights and heat are yet to be fitted.

The customer contacted me this week and says BC will not sign off the extension until the kitchen is fitted with a heat alarm that needs to be interconnected to the smoke in the extension.

Now, I have no problem fitting a heat in the kitchen, but what gets me is that the BC has said it needs to be interconnected to the smoke in extension. Even if there is no heat in the kitchen atall, I dont see how BC would not sign off the extension due to the fact that the kitchen is existing (although it now adjoins the new extension), however the kitchen has been made bigger by using up the old living room by removal of an internal wall. I will try to post a drawing.

 

[haptism]

Without seeing it or a good plan it is difficult to say. So are you saying the entire ground floor is essentially one room.

No westy, although the kitchen and new extension are in effect one room (there are no doors involved throughout).

 

[haptism]

This is the layout

 

[polo1]

Tbh, I would always look to interlink, even if building control didn't require it. Just think it makes for a more robust system.

 

[Toneyz]

On your layout what is south of the new kitchen do you have to go through the kitchen to get to the front door? if so it is the escape route that's why they would ask for a alarm. I once had to go to a two-story extension for my old employment and as they only had battery smokes and interlinked smoke detectors had to be fitted.

 

[westward10]

I would say it definitely needs a smoke detector there as there would be no vision panel from the wc to see a fire occurring and heat detectors are essentially decoration.

 

[Toneyz]

Tbh, I would always look to interlink, even if building control didn't require it. Just think it makes for a more robust system.

Just to add they need to be all interlinked as if one went off in another part of the building you would need to know there was a fire to get out before it reaches another part of the building.

 

[haptism]

On your layout what is south of the new kitchen do you have to go through the kitchen to get to the front door? if so it is the escape route that's why they would ask for a alarm. I once had to go to a two-story extension for my old employment and as they only had battery smokes and interlinked smoke detectors had to be fitted.

Yep South of the kitchen is the hall that leads to front door. I recommended the kitchen has a heat fitted, its if it needs to be interlinked with the smoke in the extension thats what im on about.

 

[haptism]

Just to add they need to be all interlinked as if one went off in another part of the building you would need to know there was a fire to get out before it reaches another part of the building.

But if the heat went off in the kitchen, or the smoke in the extension it would (or vice versa) it would be difficult not to hear as one would be less than 10meters from the other.

 

[polo1]

I would say it definitely needs a smoke detector there as there would be no vision panel from the wc to see a fire occurring and heat detectors are essentially decoration.

True, heats are a compromise. If we only had smoke detectors in residential premises, (even more) people would disconnect them due to nuisance alarms from the kitchen sensor; so better a heat than smoke or nowt!
Op, just interlink it and be done ;>}

 

[Toneyz]

If one goes off they all go off that's the idea.They need to be all the same make and design range.

 

[westward10]

The problem I see here is the wc, had that not been there the extension would not require asd as there is clear unobstructed vision to the kitchen. What has essentially been created here is a circulation space through the extension for the route from the wc and hence it needs to be linked.

 

[haptism]

The problem I see here is the wc, had that not been there the extension would not require asd as there is clear unobstructed vision to the kitchen. What has essentially been created here is a circulation space through the extension for the route from the wc and hence it needs to be linked.

Well thats just total overkill imo, the same could be said about a broom cupboard. If someones sitting on the throne and theres a fire in the kitchen, they would hear the kitchen alarm going off, theres no doors and its about 15 paces from A to B

 

[westward10]

Bottom line under Approved Doc B, heat detection in the kitchen needs linking to the smoke detection.

 

[haptism]

If one goes off they all go off that's the idea.They need to be all the same make and design range.

Would radio linked suffice

 

[Toneyz]

But a smouldering fire starting would not be picked up be a heat detector.

 

[Toneyz]

Would radio linked suffice

Yes but materials would be more expensive but less in labour.

 

[westward10]

Well thats just total overkill imo, the same could be said about a broom cupboard. If someones sitting on the throne and theres a fire in the kitchen, they would hear the kitchen alarm going off, theres no doors and its about 15 paces from A to B

The problem with ahd is that it is not an effective means of protection for an escape route, often by the time one is activated the fire is probably getting out of control. I assume the hall has asd.

 

[haptism]

Bottom line under Approved Doc B, heat detection in the kitchen needs linking to the smoke detection.

Thanks Westward, thats some extrapolation of building control I was unsure about till now, !

 

[westward10]

Thanks Westward, thats some extrapolation of building control I was unsure about till now, !

See 1.13 of said document which I think you have done where circulation space is referred to and although strictly speaking this does refer to hallways and landings the wc has allowed the extension to become so and hence linking is required. I am somewhat surprised the wc location was approved without a door in the new extension to lead to a place of safety.

 

[haptism]

The problem with ahd is that it is not an effective means of protection for an escape route, often by the time one is activated the fire is probably getting out of control. I assume the hall has asd.

What is asd ? The hall has no alarms. When I wired the the extension I fitted the mains smoke and issued the EIC and notified it. At that time the kitchen was a non starter until further notice, so in that respect ive done nothing wrong.

Then I wired the kitchen, issued Eic, but customer says to wait for lights and heat alarm, so i notify it anyway. Thats wrong to notify it then in this instance.

 

[haptism]

See 1.13 of said document which I think you have done where circulation space is referred to and although strictly speaking this does refer to hallways and landings the wc has allowed the extension to become so and hence linking is required. I am somewhat surprised the wc location was approved without a door in the new extension to lead to a place of safety.

There is a door leading out to the garden in the new extension, as well as patio doors round the corner. I did not draw them in the sketch.

 

[Toneyz]

There is a door leading out to the garden in the new extension, as well as patio doors round the corner. I did not draw them in the sketch.

Escape route leading out to the street.It is no good into the garden which is classed as a closed space probably with a locked back gate.

 

[haptism]

I tell you what, ive had enough of builders

 

[haptism]

Escape route leading out to the street.It is no good into the garden which is classed as a closed space probably with a locked back gate.

 

[Toneyz]

I tell you what, ive had enough of builders

It's not the builder's fault they rely upon us electricians to tell them we are at the end of the day are supposed to up to speed with all this.

 

[haptism]

It's not the builder's fault they rely upon us electricians to tell them we are at the end of the day are supposed to up to speed with all this.

Still the builders dont help sometimes; so another question. If in the future a one room extension came up, then it would not be enough for me to install a single smoke in that room; I would in effect be possessing the entire building in relation to fire escape routes and would need to install alarms where needed, even if they need tobe installed in a remote part of the building from where im doing the main work. ?

 

[Octopus]

Now we have the full story . Fit the interlinked units and send the client the bill.

 

[Toneyz]

Still the builders dont help sometimes; so another question. If in the future a one room extension came up, then it would not be enough for me to install a single smoke in that room; I would in effect be possessing the entire building in relation to fire escape routes and would need to install alarms where needed, even if they need tobe installed in a remote part of the building from where im doing the main work. ?

You are in this case refer to building regs and fire detection/alarms in domestic dwellings. It used to be the case (maybe not now) but building regs only required S/D for escape routes whereas B.S. used to include kitchens and habitable rooms eg lounge. I believe the case is that where an extension is being done smoke detection would need to be installed to escape routes which may part of the existing dwelling.

 

[Octopus]

Still the builders dont help sometimes; so another question. If in the future a one room extension came up, then it would not be enough for me to install a single smoke in that room; I would in effect be possessing the entire building in relation to fire escape routes and would need to install alarms where needed, even if they need tobe installed in a remote part of the building from where im doing the main work. ?

If said extension is being done with BCO involved ask them ......

Don't rely on what Bob the Builder says .........