The Ring is dead, long live the Radial!⚡

[static zap]

I'm sure British "Mathematicians" that helped Blighty
win the war would also enjoy the simplicity
of verifying a GOOD RFC with the figure of 8 test ..
(God forbid it reveal quality issues with switched parts )

 

[Grant1987]

The Radial and FRC (why) debate will always go on whilst T&E is still being produced if at some point that ceases to be the case I think the RFC will go it's natural course.

Long live the ring

 

[Vortigern]

RFC will go it's natural course

And what may that be, if I might enquire?
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So what tests do you do on a radial in those places that only do radials. Especially dead tests and live tests?

 

[ipf]

Personally rfc is fab when you put it in and do the tests,
I get a strange warm feeling when the maths work out perfectly. Us English eh!

After so long installing and testing them, I think it's a case of 'bleedin' boiling feeling' if they don't!!

 

[Mike Johnson]

And what may that be, if I might enquire?
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So what tests do you do on a radial in those places that only do radials. Especially dead tests and live tests?

You know the answer to that already

All the normal tests.

 

[cliffed]

Ring main’s will go on,but realistically the radial should be the new answer.
Yes it’s a problem the actual loading ,but the Kitchen & Utility areas would need the most radials.
You look @ the norm 3 bed house it becomes logically to run maybe 2 radials for upstairs,& maybe 2 for downstairs.
Thats makes approx 7-8 radials.Easy .....

 

[davesparks]

The Radial and FRC (why) debate will always go on whilst T&E is still being produced if at some point that ceases to be the case I think the RFC will go it's natural course.

What is the link between rings and T&E?
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Ring main’s will go on,but realistically the radial should be the new answer.
Yes it’s a problem the actual loading ,but the Kitchen & Utility areas would need the most radials.
You look @ the norm 3 bed house it becomes logically to run maybe 2 radials for upstairs,& maybe 2 for downstairs.
Thats makes approx 7-8 radials.Easy .....

Why is the loading a problem? Radials can have the exact same current rating as a ring.

How is that logical for a 3 bed house when a ring upstairs and a ring downstairs would do the job in 2 circuits?

 

[7029 dave]

"spurs off a ring are the devil, s work" is a comment I would regard as "throwaway" in most cases, but your comments are much too measured and considered for me to take it lightly in your case. Do you really feel so strongly? (I agree by the way but would, nt use the same language). Or have you been swayed by John Ward who used the phrase "devil's work" in relation to ring circuits.
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Agreed. I often remind customers that when testing we do not have a "crystal ball" and that our meters are limited in what they can tell us. I maintain that the "visual test" is still the single most important o E we carry out

IMO its 80% using your eyes.

 

[Vortigern]

You know the answer to that already

Eh? I do? Mhmm wonder why I asked! Do you mean it will continue as it always did, or are you suggesting it will eventually fall into disuse, in your opinion?

 

[Mike Johnson]

IMO you are just playing a silly game and trying to start an argument, it is impossible to have a serious discussion about Radials and Ring Mains it seems to be an emotive subject that people will answer with smart answers to try and draw you into a trap.

 

[Mike Johnson]

What is the link between rings and T&E?
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I am surprised you don't know.

 

[cliffed]

What is the link between rings and T&E?
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Why is the loading a problem? Radials can have the exact same current rating as a ring.

How is that logical for a 3 bed house when a ring upstairs and a ring downstairs would do the job in 2 circuits?

I think the way forward would be radials,my thinking was 20 amp radialS.
One for upstairs & downstairs in a normal 3 bed.
Dishwasher,Washing machine,oven on their own radials, & a nice radial for all those other bits.
Been putting Ring’s in for ages now ,let’s move forward

 

[pc1966]

Been putting Ring’s in for ages now ,let’s move forward

Why?
What advantage does twice the number of radials have over a ring?

 

[UNG]

Debating the pro's and con's of rings and radials and all the variations is always going to be one of those never ending debates goes round in circles and occasionally goes off at a tangent
The spurring of other sockets from either circuit is the one that generally leads to most of the problems, while the professionals may split a ring and extend it the accepted DIY method is just to spur from the nearest socket.
The problem is the DIY guy who sees 2 cables looped at a socket and has not got the ability or equipment to identify whether it is a ring or a radial and spurs off it to a new socket
When designing circuits the ring provides a flexibility that in some situations would need several radials to give a similar outcome, look at any 1930's property that hasn't been rewired where radials have been extended and in some cases have ended up as rings

The fault finding and inspect and test nightmare normally only shows it's head on older installations that have had many alterations and extensions over a number of years from any number of DIYers and / or builders who believe it is only a few wires and anybody can do it , it is then left to an electrician to unravel the mess when it all goes wrong or an EICR is needed

The issue I see of moving wholly to radials would be the available space to locate the larger CU's needed to accommodate more circuits especially on rewires where space in the mains cupboard at times is at a premium.
If we do move to a radials only installation format should we the ditch the 13A socket and fused plugs, it wasn't that many years ago a pan European plug and socket was discussed but seemed to fall by the wayside because the new design could not favour any member state or manufacturer should this be revived or are we then going to debate the enhanced safety aspect of the 13A plug and socket which was only introduced because of the introduction ring circuit

If it ever happens that it is radials only I can see the next debate now "the 20th edition regs say radials only so how do I code an installation that has ring circuits", may be we need a "1984 section" to debate possible future regs now could make interesting reading for someone in 20 - 30 years time

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think the way forward would be radials,my thinking was 20 amp radialS.
One for upstairs & downstairs in a normal 3 bed.
Dishwasher,Washing machine,oven on their own radials, & a nice radial for all those other bits.
Been putting Ring’s in for ages now ,let’s move forward

You've been reading the French/German plus a few other EU countries Regulations.
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Why?
What advantage does twice the number of radials have over a ring?

I expected better of you Pete.

 

[UNG]

I think the way forward would be radials,my thinking was 20 amp radialS.
One for upstairs & downstairs in a normal 3 bed.
Dishwasher,Washing machine,oven on their own radials, & a nice radial for all those other bits.
Been putting Ring’s in for ages now ,let’s move forward

Let's bin the radial we have been using them a lot longer than the ring

Why?
What advantage does twice the number of radials have over a ring?

Only twice as many radials I think there could be a lot more than that

 

[nicebutdim]

Been putting Ring’s in for ages now ,let’s move forward

By that logic, countries that don't use RFCs would have to start using them.

Two 20A radials might be ideal upstairs, but those circuits might end metres apart and a short length of cable would mean half the expenditure on protective devices, along with saving a way in the CU. Equally there could be situations where an upstairs ring is impractical for various reasons and 2x radials would be the better option. There are an unlimited number of examples which can be presented in favour of either option and I'm not sure that taking a blinkered view in preference of a single option is a good idea.

Rather than consider this a forwards or backwards issue, would it not be better to install whatever circuit is most appropriate in any given situation? I'm not advocating a return to 1950s practices where two rings might serve every socket in a house, but can you honestly state that you don't come across circumstances where a ring would be the most logical option?

 

[ipf]

Scolmore's getting towards his first ton.......get ready to stand and applaud another regular re-read.
Magic that leccy, especially to salesmen.

 

[Vortigern]

So in Spain I have read of an electrician who recounted doing CUs there. He said that each appliance (in France as well apparently) had to have it's own radial. Fans could not be put on lighting circuit and so on. The upshot being, he said that a 32 way CU is quite common. Now that is insane, and if that is where anybody is suggesting advancing to, I would say it is not an advance. Given we are now trying to stuff AFDD SPD RCD into a CU. Also what are the implications of having 32 cables as against 8 for Cg?

 

[cliffed]

Radials are easier & fool proof to test.
How many rings have been in complete on an Eicr,
Also it might stop the overloading of circuits especially high loads on the same ring,just because it’s a ring.