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Im currently in a dispute with UK power networks about who is responsible for the incoming earth? Now, i know under normal circumstances the owner has to take responsibility for the external earth, if an earth has never been provided via the normal channels (TNS, TNSC).

This particular installation is, what i believe to be a TNS. Based in urban north London.
Ive had fluctuating readings from 1.4ohms to 80 ohms. Now i can't seem to get this down any more than 20 odd ohms. The uk power network chap, couldn't even get a reading. (his tester looked old and beaten.)

UK power networks are disputing it ever being a TNS system because it doesn't have one of their connections on. The ribbon or whatever its called. Thats their main defence. For me, that doesn't prove they have never provided an earth. someone could have take off their soldered connection.

Does this not look like a traditional TNS but without the soldered earth???

Within the 3 property building, one lady has certificates, from the past, stating the characteristics of the supply, (TNS) and the earth readings, 0.4 ohms.

Now this would suggest to me, the power providers, provided an earth, but at some point, the integrity of the earth has been breached.

Ive been lead to believe, if you can prove, their supply has previously provided an earth to the building, then its UK power networks responsibility to maintain it?

Their argument is, we can't prove its ever had an earth through outer sheathing of the cable. If we have certification, is that classed of some type of proof.

I understand all the options or rodding down or a PME system, chargeable to the client being installed.

I personally think, the property of the suppliers has been damaged, due to deterioration, over time and there for has caused a break in the continuity of the earth. And therefor think they should pay to being in a new service?

Last thing, the 1st engineer who came out, (old boy) said, "usually when this happens, its because the earth connection in the road has failed, over the years.(basically admitting there's a fault on their supply). The cables themselves are solid but where the lead meets the earthing connection, its somehow come away. Theres heavy building works on the street, this may be a cause?

I hope this all makes sence.

What do you all think?

Kind Regards.

AmyIncoming supply.jpg
 
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telectrix

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is there evidence of a sweated connection on that lead sheath? what's there now looks DIY.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
is there evidence of a sweated connection on that lead sheath? what's there now looks DIY.
I’ll have to peel back the tape to see.
Yes this clamp is DIY.
My point is that it’s always been a TNS system but there’s recently been a break in the earth.
That’s their cable no?
 

snowhead

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Mentor
Are the 3 properties individually owned or is a Landlord involved?
Is it single supply to the building then split 3 ways or is it 3 supplies in.?
Has anyone tested the other 2 properties?

Just because one of the properties has a piece of paper saying 0.4 ohm, doesn't mean that it ever actually was that.
 
You need to quote Part IV, Chapter 13 of ESQ&CR 2002. This essentially is a requirement that cable screens must be effectively earthed.
 

freddo

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The lead above the clamp looks very clean and shiny! Was it cleaned for testing purposes?
 
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  • #8
Are the 3 properties individually owned or is a Landlord involved?
Is it single supply to the building then split 3 ways or is it 3 supplies in.?
Has anyone tested the other 2 properties?

Just because one of the properties has a piece of paper saying 0.4 ohm, doesn't mean that it ever actually was that.
It’s one supply to the whole building.

If it was 3 different supply’s and two of them had earths, do you really think I would have posted this?
Think about your question.
Equally. Just because it doesn’t have a sweated earth on a 100 year old cable, dosent mean it’s never been earthed or supplied as a TNS.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
The lead above the clamp looks very clean and shiny! Was it cleaned for testing purposes?
Yes.
I tried to get a reading and re-instate the earth.
It was fluctuating all over the place.
1.4 was my lowest and then is shot back up.
It’s a clearly a break in the earth further down the line.
Thanks for the response.
 

davesparks

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I suspect that the original connection to the sheath is under the black tape and is probably a relatively thin, by modern standards, uninsulated conductor.
I would guess that in more recent years someone has decided that the old connection is too small and has taken it upon themselves to fit a BS951 clamp to the sheath.

You may be able to find the original connection under the tape, but you'll probably find that getting UKPN to fix this relies more on getting the right person on site rather than proving what/where the original connection was.
 

Megawatt

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Arms
Advent Win
Im currently in a dispute with UK power networks about who is responsible for the incoming earth? Now, i know under normal circumstances the owner has to take responsibility for the external earth, if an earth has never been provided via the normal channels (TNS, TNSC).

This particular installation is, what i believe to be a TNS. Based in urban north London.
Ive had fluctuating readings from 1.4ohms to 80 ohms. Now i can't seem to get this down any more than 20 odd ohms. The uk power network chap, couldn't even get a reading. (his tester looked old and beaten.)

UK power networks are disputing it ever being a TNS system because it doesn't have one of their connections on. The ribbon or whatever its called. Thats their main defence. For me, that doesn't prove they have never provided an earth. someone could have take off their soldered connection.

Does this not look like a traditional TNS but without the soldered earth???

Within the 3 property building, one lady has certificates, from the past, stating the characteristics of the supply, (TNS) and the earth readings, 0.4 ohms.

Now this would suggest to me, the power providers, provided an earth, but at some point, the integrity of the earth has been breached.

Ive been lead to believe, if you can prove, their supply has previously provided an earth to the building, then its UK power networks responsibility to maintain it?

Their argument is, we can't prove its ever had an earth through outer sheathing of the cable. If we have certification, is that classed of some type of proof.

I understand all the options or rodding down or a PME system, chargeable to the client being installed.

I personally think, the property of the suppliers has been damaged, due to deterioration, over time and there for has caused a break in the continuity of the earth. And therefor think they should pay to being in a new service?

Last thing, the 1st engineer who came out, (old boy) said, "usually when this happens, its because the earth connection in the road has failed, over the years.(basically admitting there's a fault on their supply). The cables themselves are solid but where the lead meets the earthing connection, its somehow come away. Theres heavy building works on the street, this may be a cause?

I hope this all makes sence.

What do you all think?

Kind Regards.
The NEC does allow solared
AmyView attachment 51537
Im currently in a dispute with UK power networks about who is responsible for the incoming earth? Now, i know under normal circumstances the owner has to take responsibility for the external earth, if an earth has never been provided via the normal channels (TNS, TNSC).

This particular installation is, what i believe to be a TNS. Based in urban north London.
Ive had fluctuating readings from 1.4ohms to 80 ohms. Now i can't seem to get this down any more than 20 odd ohms. The uk power network chap, couldn't even get a reading. (his tester looked old and beaten.)

UK power networks are disputing it ever being a TNS system because it doesn't have one of their connections on. The ribbon or whatever its called. Thats their main defence. For me, that doesn't prove they have never provided an earth. someone could have take off their soldered connection.

Does this not look like a traditional TNS but without the soldered earth???

Within the 3 property building, one lady has certificates, from the past, stating the characteristics of the supply, (TNS) and the earth readings, 0.4 ohms.

Now this would suggest to me, the power providers, provided an earth, but at some point, the integrity of the earth has been breached.

Ive been lead to believe, if you can prove, their supply has previously provided an earth to the building, then its UK power networks responsibility to maintain it?

Their argument is, we can't prove its ever had an earth through outer sheathing of the cable. If we have certification, is that classed of some type of proof.

I understand all the options or rodding down or a PME system, chargeable to the client being installed.

I personally think, the property of the suppliers has been damaged, due to deterioration, over time and there for has caused a break in the continuity of the earth. And therefor think they should pay to being in a new service?

Last thing, the 1st engineer who came out, (old boy) said, "usually when this happens, its because the earth connection in the road has failed, over the years.(basically admitting there's a fault on their supply). The cables themselves are solid but where the lead meets the earthing connection, its somehow come away. Theres heavy building works on the street, this may be a cause?

I hope this all makes sence.

What do you all think?

Kind Regards.

AmyView attachment 51537
The NEC doesn’t allow soldering because of corrosion, could that be the problem?
 

telectrix

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2" below that clamp appears to be bulging under the tape. bet there's a sweated bare earthing conductor there that's been cut off.
 
B

Bobster

The NEC doesn’t allow soldering because of corrosion, could that be the problem?
Soldering is fine in this case.

These are PILC cables (Paper insulated lead cable). The outer protection (Armour) is made from lead, an normal practice is to solder to this. PILC cables are old, some as old as our distribution network being DC!

They are bomb proof and will easily out live the person installing them. However the shear cost of production stopped them from being used.

In response to the OP. As @telectrix mentioned looks like something could be there a couple of inches under the jubilee clamp. Hard to tell if it is a bulge or dirt and camera angle.
 

Lucien Nunes

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The NEC doesn’t allow soldering because of corrosion, could that be the problem?
Soldering is the normal and preferred method of connection to lead. There is no reason for soldering to cause corrosion if done properly - the phone or computer you're reading this on is soldered together!

The problem here is more one of the rules than an electrical one. The OP knows there is a fault outside in the DNO / PoCo's service cable or a joint in that cable because it's not providing a satisfactory earth connection. However, since the connection at the cable termination is of the wrong type and damaging the cable, the DNO will say the connection is not original which means they are not obliged to maintain it, so they will remove it and not fix the fault outside, leaving the OP reliant on a rod.

If the OP can find clear evidence that the original cable was soldered to the lead sheath, it will force the DNO both to reterminate that and to fix the joint outside, at no cost to the customer. The regulation that Westward10 quotes is useful, as it might force the DNO to address the high resistance joint even if they don't think it's their duty to provide the customer with an earth. Then, the OP could potentially use it by fitting the correct type of clamp.
 
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