Understandable attitude?

[DPG]

What's wrong with flagging the switched live? That's correct. I'm sure you are just looking for am argument in most of your posts. Do you lack attention or something?

 

[andyb]

I've been an electrician for over 35 years, domestic and commercial.
There's no way I could do a rewire as you describe and without testing it say it was safe. Give me a multimeter and the answers the same, I couldn't tell you.
Yet you and your mate have that ability, and you haven't even seen it.
You have my deepest admiration.

 

[Percyprod]

Of course it's correct.

 

[Percyprod]

The word was safer, and of course it needs testing, which is what he intends doing. Read the post.

 

[MDJ]

The word was safer, and of course it needs testing, which is what I intend doing. Read the post.

Good lad, now you just need someone to lend you their MFT.

 

[pirate]

I flew over to Spain yesterday, thinking I'd get away from this thread...but, no!

Anyway, the dodgy disintegrating socket I posted ages ago has been replaced, so if it doesn't stop raining soon I'll have it apart to see what's been done.

FYI, the weather isn't great

 

[MDJ]

I flew over to Spain yesterday, thinking I'd get away from this thread...but, no!

Anyway, the dodgy disintegrating socket I posted ages ago has been replaced, so if it doesn't stop raining soon I'll have it apart to see what's been done.

FYI, the weather isn't great

Nor is the beer but I would rather be there than here.

 

[pirate]

Me too MDJ, me too...
which is why I am here!
Oh, and there are some good beers here, actually...but not the variety, of course. However, the quest continues...

 

[MDJ]

Me too MDJ, me too...
which is why I am here!
Oh, and there are some good beers here, actually...but not the variety, of course. However, the quest continues...

Did they let you on the plane with that parrot on your shoulder?

 

[pirate]

Yes, Jabber's a good 'un...he's happy hidden down me trousers as we go through security and onto the plane...
You've heard o' budgie smugglers? Mine are different class!

 

[Midwest]

I cut the grass, went to B&Q's to get some fence paint, van wouldn't start. Waited nearly two hours in the car park for the AA, then went back & painted the fences. Great day.

Why would I want to be in flippin Spain, even if it is raining there.

 

[Dave OCD]

I flew over to Spain yesterday, thinking I'd get away from this thread...but, no!

Anyway, the dodgy disintegrating socket I posted ages ago has been replaced, so if it doesn't stop raining soon I'll have it apart to see what's been done.

FYI, the weather isn't great

Did it make your arms ache ??

 

[Percyprod]

Strangely MDJ on my display it says ''HE' is doing it, not 'I', meaning he is getting someone to do it, and before you say it I don't know who or how qualified he is, nitmy problem.

 

[Midwest]

Just thought I'd add to your woes Percy, some DNO's permit competent electricians, registered with certain Schemes, to cut the sealing device to their main fuse, and pull their main fuse. Complying with etc etc & wearing suitable PPE. Refereing to your #98.

 

[andyb]

The word was safer, and of course it needs testing, which is what he intends doing. Read the post.

You did say safer Percy, in fact you said far safer.
I still maintain that you cant say that it's safer without testing.
It could well be less safe, it could be down right dangerous.
It's not hard to understand.

 

[Toneyz]

In your other post, you have stated that you are an electrician why don't you test it for him?

 

[Toneyz]

From day one the OP has not done his self any favours and rubbed a few people up the wrong way for what I've read.

 

[Percyprod]

Simply don't t have the test equipment now, only a multimeter, so not much point testing with that. Also better that he gets it tested by someone who can issue a certificate, which I can't, different from my own property. I did do a 17 th edition testing course, because after a neutral fault we needed to test in the cu, but that's not a full installation testing qualification. Fair enough some dnos permit certain authorised people to break seals, but not all. Well, I'll accept it could be less safe, but I would still say it's more likely to be safer.

 

[MDJ]

Simply don't t have the test equipment now, only a multimeter, so not much point testing with that. Also better that he gets it tested by someone who can issue a certificate, which I can't, different from my own property. I did do a 17 th edition testing course, because after a neutral fault we needed to test in the cu, but that's not a full installation testing qualification. Fair enough some dnos permit certain authorised people to break seals, but not all. Well, I'll accept it could be less safe, but I would still say it's more likely to be safer.

what has this got to do with testing?

 

[Percyprod]

? Perhaps the words 'test' and 'testing' are clues?

 

[DPG]

I think he means 'what is a 17th edition testing course'?

 

[MDJ]

I thought he said regs course, I will read again.

 

[Percyprod]

Ah right. Well, as a fault technician with a dno, if there was a loss of the neutral on a 3 phase circuit, the single phase properties affected could experience high voltage. They would be disconnected from the supply and not reconected until an installtion test was carried out. Part of this meant opening the consumer unit to check the cables hadn't melted basically! Unions said we needed to be qualified to do this, as our lv authorisation didn't cover BS7671, so we were sent on a course for basic testing of installations. Now don't blame me, I only dud as I was told.

 

[Midwest]

Percy, call it a day. Unless you just like arguing, then carry on

 

[Risteard]

The word was safer, and of course it needs testing, which is what he intends doing. Read the post.

Unless it's more dangerous - which it could be as it has not been verified.

 

[Octopus]

wonder when the OP is going to put his shovel back in his shed?

 

[Percyprod]

Shed? Now there's an idea! Every man should have a shed. Some nice led lights, couple of sockets for the stereo etc, perhaps even a kettle. No need to test of course. Now where can I get some advice? Mmm.

 

[DPG]

Make sure your mate wires it up

 

[Toneyz]

Maybe they can bring their talents together?

 

[Pete999]

What a clever DIY to$$er....and I'll bet he picked up that copy of the 17th cheap, probably on eBay.

 

[Pete999]

That copy of BS 7671 must be a different copy than the one most of us have, cus mine doesn't tell you how to rewire a Domestic dwelling, to be honest it gives me a Migraine just looking at it.

 

[Percyprod]

My mate? I wouldn't let him near it! It's my man cave, MINE do you hear?

 

[johnduffell]

Nice post, but I'd say at least some testing is a job within reach of anyone who has made changes to an installation. All you need is a multimeter- If you've added a spur then polarity and CPC continuity at a minimum even if you don't have the ability to check R1+R2 etc.

no idea why people keep adding "Disagree" to this post, you better all write to Vaillant as their servicing instructions go further to class that as perfectly sufficient (as opposed to the weaker "at least it's better than nothing" I stated)

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/ecotec-pro-instn-maint-261423.pdf
P46, right hand side

 

[DPG]

John, your post refers to installing a boiler. It does not refer to making changes to the fixed wiring of an installation.

Changes made to the fixed wiring of an installation require testing with appropriate test equipment.

 

[Captain Black]

no idea why people keep adding "Disagree" to this post, you better all write to Vaillant as their servicing instructions go further to class that as perfectly sufficient (as opposed to the weaker "at least it's better than nothing" I stated)

'Yes your Honour, I know the property burnt to the ground and took the houses either side with it, but I was only following the instructions Vaillant gave me'

 

[johnduffell]

John, your post refers to installing a boiler. It does not refer to making changes to the fixed wiring of an installation.

Changes made to the fixed wiring of an installation require testing with appropriate test equipment.

Agree, but people are disagreeing that it's possible to find faults with a multimeter. Unless all the people disagreeing are 5 week wonders, I'd expect any decent electrician to know how to find most common diy errors on added spurs and lighting circuits.

 

[telectrix]

Agree, but people are disagreeing that it's possible to find faults with a multimeter. Unless all the people disagreeing are 5 week wonders, I'd expect any decent electrician to know how to find most common diy errors on added spurs and lighting circuits.

yes, but the point made was that a multimeter (as opposed to a MFT) is not capable of performing the necessary tests, e.g. IR/loop/RCD/Polarity. it can only measure voltage and continuity

 

[DPG]

John, nobody is saying a multimeter cannot find certain faults. However it cannot perform a high current (200mA) continuity test and it cannot perform insulation resistance tests. Both of these tests are essential to confirming the installed circuit is safe.

 

[johnduffell]

the point made was that a multimeter (as opposed to a MFT) is not capable of performing the necessary tests

nobody is saying a multimeter cannot find certain faults.

Thanks for the support both of you. , all the people who pressed disagree were apparently saying that. It's a bit depressing getting them every time i log on from people who don't know what they're disagreeing with. Is there any way to remove my post? As i can't edit to clarify.

 

[DPG]

I wouldn't worry about it John.

 

[ipf]

Thanks for the support both of you. , all the people who pressed disagree were apparently saying that. It's a bit depressing getting them every time i log on from people who don't know what they're disagreeing with. Is there any way to remove my post? As i can't edit to clarify.

Nice post, but I'd say at least some testing is a job within reach of anyone who has made changes to an installation. All you need is a multimeter- If you've added a spur then polarity and CPC continuity at a minimum even if you don't have the ability to check R1+R2 etc.

John, you are twisting things. The disagreements were nothing to do with whether or not multimeter tests are better than nothing. For example, if you haven't the ability to carry out R1+R2 test, would you have the ability for an R2 test...and, in the majority of cases, understand about a wander lead to help carry it out.

 

[johnduffell]

, TESTING is a job for those with the correct equipment and the knowledge to use it...I don't touch that either

I'd say at least some testing is a job within reach of anyone who has made changes to an installation. All you need is a multimeter- If you've added a spur then polarity and CPC continuity at a minimum even if you don't have the ability to check R1+R2 etc.

you are twisting things. The disagreements were nothing to do with whether or not multimeter tests are better than nothing

Seems you are right, however in my opinion so many posters should not have applied the Disagree label to a post that said that.
As you know I am well aware of the purpose and importance of testing and when encouraging posters to do more testing where they would do none I'd have expected more support.
Anyway I'll get that post removed as it's just causing problems! Cheers.

 

[Darkwood]

Seems you are right, however in my opinion so many posters should not have applied the Disagree label to a post that said that.
As you know I am well aware of the purpose and importance of testing and when encouraging posters to do more testing where they would do none I'd have expected more support.
Anyway I'll get that post removed as it's just causing problems! Cheers.

Due to all the replies and Quotes on your posts it is a menial task to unstitch the comments and replies so it will remain, I can see the core meaning of your post but members have responded and I for the majority must agree, you make the suggestion that some tests are better than none, this depends on the context it is presented in, an installation can not be deemed safe unless the full set of tests has been carried out in a certain order and a knowledge of the results to prescribed limits is understood including any adjustments needed for the many correction factors that need to be considered, these are very valid points the members are putting forward, if I can give an analogy it would be like doing a full MOT check and not looking at the brakes in that you can feel somewhat safe until you need to do an emergency stop!
In this industry knowing a little is a dangerous thing as it is easy to get over confident in an area where safety is paramount, simple issues like the bonding arrangement of a house can be deadly if not checked before making an alteration, addition or new circuit, a multimeter is no substitute on its own and in reflection does not give enough info' to the condition, safety and compliance of an installation.
Like has been mentioned, there are no shortcuts or part testings that can be deemed better than nothing as too many assumptions need to be made for the results to be accepted, a simple thing like a broken earth could see a parallel path make it look fine (false positive), you either do the full testing required or your limited results mean nothing.
Electricity is dangerous and it kills it would be ignorant to ignore this and/or complacent to forget this so reflect a little more on your comment and why it has seen so many responses.

 

[johnduffell]

Thanks for your post i think it clarifies things a bit!

are very valid points the members are putting forward

I fully understand the importance of testing, no one needs to make that point. The actual point is seemingly harder to explain.

can give an analogy it would be like doing a full MOT check and not looking at the brakes

That is not a related analogy at all. If you want a car analogy, a more correct analogy would be telling someone who won't do an MOT for whatever reason to get a torch and inspect his brakes himself, also test his brake lights and indicators, as at least it would be better than nothing.

you either do the full testing required or your limited results mean nothing.

Also incorrect. From a logical point of view you are saying that since a multimeter can't detect all faults that implies it can't find any. That is not true. The only truth is you can't issue an EIC off the back of the tests, which i don't think the poster i was replying to was planning to fill in either way!

 

[Darkwood]

@johnduffell

The analogy was not meant to be related in the sense you prescribe, it was to show that the safety of an install can only be evaluated if all the tests are carried out, you indeed could test say the voltage to earth is correct with a multimeter, R1+R2 or that ring circuits are complete, but you have no way of confirming that the earth path is sufficiently sound to ensure the protective device will trip within prescribed limits, this applies to short circuits and earth leakage devices when required, my point in the analogy was to express you can have the majority of the MOT boxes ticked but if you sidestep the core safety checks it may end up killing you regardless of the fact the other tests showed everything else was ok.
Any Electrician adding to a circuit or making an alteration will need to ensure the existing circuit fully tests out ok to ensure the work can be carried out and the install is correctly earthed and bonded where required, a multimeter will not cut the mustard to confirm this so yes I can see and understand what you were trying to say in that you can do certain tests with a multimeter and get some information from such tests but without the addition of the full testing procedure then this information has little value in the scope of things and worse it can be misleading thus giving one a false sense of security.
I never implied a multimeter cannot detect or show you issues or faults, of course it can and is why it is used as part of the full testing procedure, what I am saying is when you only use a multimeter then a good result may give a false impression that an installation is safe, this is why from a professional stance I must express that the safety of electrical work carried out can only be confirmed with a full set of test procedures, even if you use the meter to confirm R1 + R2 as is often what it is used for then you need to know how to translate the results to know if the cables is in compliance, this is often beyond DIY/Hobbyist knowledge so in reflection used solely on its own it may lend to a dangerous circuit been energised at the risk or life and/or property just because it appeared to give positive results, this ultimately is the dilemma with a forum giving DIY advice and is why we often limit advice and will step in when we deem a DIYer should get a professional in to do or oversee the work if members haven't already pushed that advice forward.

 

[johnduffell]

Got you, so i think the only difference of opinion is simply that I support electrical DIYers to improve their knowledge of testing, whereas the professionals on here including yourself would say DIY shouldn't be done at all unless it can be tested fully to bs7671.

 

[johnduffell]

Not to mention the other can of worms that the same arguments could be used to say compliance with bs7671 doesn't guarantee safety either, it's just better practice then something lower.

look at the whole bond Vs don't bond debate for one example. TT vs exported earth for outbuildings. There are lots of tradeoffs.

But the benefits of the regs must outweigh the costs. And no one is suggesting we use isolated 110v centre tap or battery power like they do on building sites.

 

[Darkwood]

Where the forum stands and is often a point I make is DIY is really a case by case matter and there is no grand overlaying rule but to try generalise it then DIY is the simple tasks like changing a light switch, socket or fitting but even on these points we still must make the member aware of the risks, where we see a DIYer going further like wiring additional, altering existing or new circuits then we like to see a good command of knowledge and regulation awareness, this would be the case if a member with related electrical background but not say domestic wiring wants to use their related field knowledge to do home electrics but even then we would question the testing arrangements as safe advice is the priority here not whether the task been undertaken is a simple one or not.
If a qualified person went to change a light fitting then in his professional position he would still do a few minimal checks like Earth Loop Impedance and possible a visual on the main Earthing and bonding where required so it is a difficult subject to discuss because we do know that there are restrictions to what checks a DIYer can do, there is of course the fact a homeowner has to maintain their own electrics and this also extends to having a periodic inspection done, we know these things don't happen if left to the general homeowner but as long as we make our position clear then we can offer limited advice.
There used to be a foot note for DIYers which explained all this on the older software system before the upgrade, I will check if we still have it in place.

 

[johnduffell]

Got you, thanks for the detailed explanation that's fair enough as an overall policy.
So in my original post to the member who said testing is not for him after alterations to circuits, it would have been more effective/simpler to have told the poster not to do those modifications himself in future, and get his existing circuits tested by a qualified electrician.

 

[Percyprod]

There seems to be a total oposition to the opinion that some tests are better than none, and that if some tests are done then it is likely to be safer than if no tests are done, still not proved safe (it could of course be perfectly safe) but safer. If an installation has 10 faults, and 5 of them are found with a multimeter, then it is safer, as now it only has 5 faults, but it is still not safe. I don't see how that can be disputed. Using the car example, if a car has faulty brakes and steering, and you fix the brakes, it is still dangerous, but not as dangerous as having faulty brakes and steering.