Understanding shading

[Martin Dawes]

I'm trying to work out how many panels I can get on my south facing roof but I'm a little confused with regards to shading. It looks like the only shading I will get will be from a neighbours roof but only during the depths of winter.

Does anyone know how to calculate potential yield of the PV system, taking this shading into consideration? It will only affect the lowest part of the array so it doesn't seem straightforward to calculate.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tilegem]

Hi Martin

Beware shading can reduce a modules output by up to 50% and a shaded module can reduce the output of the whole string. So try to keep shaded modules in the same string and separate sepearte string(s) for the unshaded modules to optimise output.

Try the following link it calculates average values of an array output for the UK month by month so you could modify the values for the months you expect shading.

PV potential estimation utility​

 

[malcolmsanford]

Before you go down the road of PV have you actually worked out what if any the benefits will be.

The FIT are what now 41.3p and you get 3p for every Kwh you feed back into the grid. With the current climate how long will they keep these tarifs, I know they agreed 25 yrs but as we all Know politicians always do what they promise!! Then you have the upkeep cleaning the panels, repalcing the inverter if if fails etc,

Have a good look at the figures before you decide. The maximum for that 41.3p is 4kw over that it drops to 36. something. If the house is empty during the day then you will just get the 3p unless you can store the power you have produced.

Have a good think about it, commendable if your trying to save the planet, but IMO it dosen't it's a goverment gimmick at the moment

 

[tilegem]

'If the house is empty during the day then you will just get the 3p unless you can store the power you have produced. '

I disagree, if your system is 'grid-connected' any surplus energy goes back into the grid so you still receive the 41.3p whether you use it or not

 

[malcolmsanford]

Your generation tariff is 41.3p Your Export tarif is 3p

 

[Markc]

In basic terms and not using a design software the best approach is to best guess it.

Some suppliers who provide designs as well work on four scales. None, Slight 25% shade, Modest 50% shade and Significant 75% shade. I would say work on slight if you are just looking at one panel in winter only. Take you annual yield estimate with no shade and deduct 25%. Now this is not by any means a hard a fast method and it will return a lower yield but working with little information or calculations there little more that can be done.

Shading is a major issue. We had a flag pole to over come a few months ago and the company we installed for were very attached to it! We orientated the affected panels to portrait so any shadow fell laterally top to bottom of the panel. As the cells are connected vertically the shadow cast only affects these cells rather than falling across rows of cells. Makes a big difference.

If there's opportunity to move the affected panel do it. People seem to like regimented layouts. Rows and rectangles but sometimes it pays to turn panels or even separate the array and avoid shading issues.

As for the argument on tariff, Retro fit 41.3p per unit GENERATED. Fixed for 25yrs. 3p per unit export at 50% of what is generated until a smart meter is fitted to the property. Saving of annual properties electric bill +£130 per year average.

Government Gimmick was mentioned above, Love it! keep thinking that way and leave the field clear for the proportional installers.

 

[Noshocks]

Agree with above, there are many misinformed comments around on the web regarding the FIT, you get the 41.3p for every unit you generate, so if you are living in the house or not it makes no difference, the 3p or whatever you can negotiate is just a bonus.

The government WILL reduce the FIT in coming years, but this will be for new entrants as PV install prices come down, anyone who signs up now will get the FIT at current levels index linked for the 25 years, exactly like the German model.

The more potential installers that think like Malcolmsanford above the better for the rest of us who are actually out there doing it, there are plenty of savvy customers who actually know the facts thankfully.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Well glad to hear of these savvy customers.

I work in a country that is in the top 5 of potential solar yield in the world. In March this year I did the SSEG course back in the UK. It was like listening to a snake oil salesman

The Uk in its geographical position gets in Dec on average only 1.3hours of sunlight. In June it get's 6.9 hours. Over the year an average of 1640 which is 4 hours a day.

Yes we know that any DAYLIGHT on a panel will yield power, but will a cloudy wet day in Dec yield the same as a bright sunny day in Jun, I don't think it will but if the SSEG guys have figures to disprove that I'm willing to see them.

All the figures given to this Savvy customer is optimum yield and not the actual yield, a vast difference. So you have calculated that my south facing roof, no shade can sit 4kw of panels. I ask you what every customer asks "what then will be the total KW produced in a year" your answer, and if it's an honest one will be " it depends"

A kw of panel installation is between 5-7k which is 20-28k for a 4KW installation, no wonder you guys are defending it.

Then the virtually maintenance free. The word virtually is the key. The panels will only give optimum yield when clean. So we have the prospect of joe public clambering on his roof to clean them. A better option is a little maintenance contract by the installer to do that for him. Also I wonder how many invertors will still be operational after 10yrs never mind the 25yrs. Again at over 2k a time for a 4kw invertor good after business. Though the panels are given in some cases a 20 yr warrenty, ask the manufacterer what the depreciation factor of yield on the panel over those 20 yrs, not many if any will know.

All the SSEG installers know, or they should know, that the only viable PV system is not a roof mounted one. The only ones that really work are free standing, and in fact track the sun during the day for optimum yield. This is not told to the savvy customer

The government, the electrical companies and all knew that PV installations in the UK are not viable at this time. The only way to do it was to introduce these FIT. How are these tariffs met, not by the government, and certainly not by the electrical companies, it will be by the public. That will mean that charges on key meters, which are notorious becasue they target the less well off, ie OAP's, young families, single mums, will rise. The public will subsidise the few who have 20k and can afford the installation.

I'm neither a bleeding heart or a dinosaur. I do though believe that at the moment PV technology is not viable in the UK. Even utilising these Tariffs, unless there are hard figures to persaude me, will not return anything on an investment of that magnitude.
I have an open mind and am willing to concede if i'm proved wrong by hard facts. My conclusion is the time frame. It's bandered a return in 10yrs how many schemes over the years have promised this, and failed miserably, I expect this is another

 

[Markc]

Agree with above, there are many misinformed comments around on the web regarding the FIT, you get the 41.3p for every unit you generate, so if you are living in the house or not it makes no difference, the 3p or whatever you can negotiate is just a bonus.

The government WILL reduce the FIT in coming years, but this will be for new entrants as PV install prices come down, anyone who signs up now will get the FIT at current levels index linked for the 25 years, exactly like the German model.

The more potential installers that think like Malcolmsanford above the better for the rest of us who are actually out there doing it, there are plenty of savvy customers who actually know the facts thankfully.

100% with you here!

 

[Markc]

Well glad to hear of these savvy customers.

I work in a country that is in the top 5 of potential solar yield in the world. In March this year I did the SSEG course back in the UK. It was like listening to a snake oil salesman

The Uk in its geographical position gets in Dec on average only 1.3hours of sunlight. In June it get's 6.9 hours. Over the year an average of 1640 which is 4 hours a day.

Yes we know that any DAYLIGHT on a panel will yield power, but will a cloudy wet day in Dec yield the same as a bright sunny day in Jun, I don't think it will but if the SSEG guys have figures to disprove that I'm willing to see them.

All the figures given to this Savvy customer is optimum yield and not the actual yield, a vast difference. So you have calculated that my south facing roof, no shade can sit 4kw of panels. I ask you what every customer asks "what then will be the total KW produced in a year" your answer, and if it's an honest one will be " it depends"

A kw of panel installation is between 5-7k which is 20-28k for a 4KW installation, no wonder you guys are defending it.

Then the virtually maintenance free. The word virtually is the key. The panels will only give optimum yield when clean. So we have the prospect of joe public clambering on his roof to clean them. A better option is a little maintenance contract by the installer to do that for him. Also I wonder how many invertors will still be operational after 10yrs never mind the 25yrs. Again at over 2k a time for a 4kw invertor good after business. Though the panels are given in some cases a 20 yr warrenty, ask the manufacterer what the depreciation factor of yield on the panel over those 20 yrs, not many if any will know.

All the SSEG installers know, or they should know, that the only viable PV system is not a roof mounted one. The only ones that really work are free standing, and in fact track the sun during the day for optimum yield. This is not told to the savvy customer

The government, the electrical companies and all knew that PV installations in the UK are not viable at this time. The only way to do it was to introduce these FIT. How are these tariffs met, not by the government, and certainly not by the electrical companies, it will be by the public. That will mean that charges on key meters, which are notorious becasue they target the less well off, ie OAP's, young families, single mums, will rise. The public will subsidise the few who have 20k and can afford the installation.

I'm neither a bleeding heart or a dinosaur. I do though believe that at the moment PV technology is not viable in the UK. Even utilising these Tariffs, unless there are hard figures to persaude me, will not return anything on an investment of that magnitude.
I have an open mind and am willing to concede if i'm proved wrong by hard facts. My conclusion is the time frame. It's bandered a return in 10yrs how many schemes over the years have promised this, and failed miserably, I expect this is another

The thing is no matter what you read or what you write I know it works. I know it returns and I know most of what is said in the negative is nothing more than inexperienced clap trap (with respect). NO renewable energy can give guarantees on return, Not one. So PV is not alone in giving averages. Do you not think average irradiation is what it is worked on? or do you honestly think we all drive round telling people we work on 365 days of fantastic sun shine a year? The FITs payments are made from carbon taxes the energy companies pay REGARDLESS if they are returned to renewable's or not. So your hard done by OAP or single parent is hard done by regardless of if the money is returned to an investor or not and just to add to that point we are in the process of tendering for PV on social housing and shared ownership, possibly people in this bracket who themselves will benefit from FITs and reduced electric bills.
I don't see any argument with maintenance as yes they are virtually maintenance free, Just a clean now and again. NO One would expect a customer to climb on there roof to do this would they? I don't. I offer two year complimentary cleaning on an annual bases and proud to do so. After this if they want it done why should I not charge? A plumber would charge for a boiler service would they not? Why shouldn't the electrical industry take this opportunity?

Under the Kyoto agreement we as a nation are committed to carbon reduction. incentives for ALL renewable's is our governments way of increasing investment to them and so reduce carbon emissions. We as a nation are not alone in offering an incentives. Most of Europe has done so and very successfully. The US is also offering incentives and seeing a up turn in this market. Will these incentives be around in 25yrs, Probably not. Are they being reduced? yes they are but that is also to reflect the reduction in product cost and installation cost.

The real show will come from April 2011, one year round from the introduction of FITs. From what I can see from our installations is that our customers are seeing returns.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Mark with all due respect it's clap trap to actually say you know it works but don't offer the proof that I asked for. Just saying you know something is not really an argument in favour of something.

I posted that I'm open minded and will glady cede if it can be proved that PV systems work, at this time, in the UK to the extent that they are a viable proposition.

I'm not quite sure what you are meaning when you say that there are no guarantees in any renewable source of energy whatever they are. But you sell your PV system on an average yield. What is that an average of if you can't guarantee any yield. If you had 10 panels of 125watts per panel installed what would be my average yield.

Are you seriously convinced that carbon taxes are paid by the industry. Is that the same as the fuel taxes for airlines, who raised their fares to pay them,the same as the electrical suppliers have by raising their tarrifs. The biggest rise was for key meter users who as I pointed out are normally the poorest in our society. So your industry relies on wealthy clients who have a large amount of capital around to buy a gimmick and then is subsidised by others, who can barely afford to keep warm in a winter.

Would your social housing scheme be installing the system free of charge, but you claiming the FIT to cover "costs" and the tenant get's "free electricity" or is there another kind of scheme.

Mark I can't say that I hope you prosper in this. I could not earn money knowing that the very source of that money is made from people that struggle to heat their homes in winter due to horrendous charges by companies that make millions upon millions and raised prices for some gimmick. If the system was proved to be vialbe then I would gladly contribute to it's development. If it worked then there would be no incentives as it would float on it's own. The exercise is a placebo by western governments to show they really care for the enviroment by supporting these snake oil schemes. At no cost to the government, no cost to the electrical supplier but to the cost of customers.

The most ironic thing in all this that perhaps 80% of the panels used in Europe are made in Japan and the far east, great carbon footprint

 

[mmccx]

The most ironic thing in all this that perhaps 80% of the panels used in Europe are made in Japan and the far east, great carbon footprint

thats why decent pv installers dont use cheap products from japan china and the far east,

aslo when you said the a 4kwp system would cost 25k, thats nonsense, the more you install the cheaper the installation becomes

 

[malcolmsanford]

sorry MMCCX where do the panels come from now ? Upto about 5 months ago they were mainly from the far east.

Most installers I know were charging on average 5.5k per kw. Insome case if it was a difficult job,. perhaps hiring of plant and such it went upto about 6.5 to 7k. Again that was about 5 months ago, and in the South East and london

 

[mmccx]

I do agree with you that there a alot of modules and inverters coming from those countries, and i do agree with you that they are counter productive, but unfortunately because they are cheap they get used

We use sharp that have a factory in the uk, Fronius are German, SMA are Austrian (i think) Mastervolt are Dutch, all factories in their respective countries these are just some of the companies i can name off hand.

If you have a 4kwp system, 22 180wp modules, 1/2 inverters depending on design, mounting system, access for a week, and all equiptment, i cant quote you precise figures as I don't do the quotes, but I know the final bills, and 25k is way way out.

 

[Markc]

Mark with all due respect it's clap trap to actually say you know it works but don't offer the proof that I asked for. Just saying you know something is not really an argument in favour of something.

I posted that I'm open minded and will glady cede if it can be proved that PV systems work, at this time, in the UK to the extent that they are a viable proposition.

I'm not quite sure what you are meaning when you say that there are no guarantees in any renewable source of energy whatever they are. But you sell your PV system on an average yield. What is that an average of if you can't guarantee any yield. If you had 10 panels of 125watts per panel installed what would be my average yield.

Are you seriously convinced that carbon taxes are paid by the industry. Is that the same as the fuel taxes for airlines, who raised their fares to pay them,the same as the electrical suppliers have by raising their tarrifs. The biggest rise was for key meter users who as I pointed out are normally the poorest in our society. So your industry relies on wealthy clients who have a large amount of capital around to buy a gimmick and then is subsidised by others, who can barely afford to keep warm in a winter.

Would your social housing scheme be installing the system free of charge, but you claiming the FIT to cover "costs" and the tenant get's "free electricity" or is there another kind of scheme.

Mark I can't say that I hope you prosper in this. I could not earn money knowing that the very source of that money is made from people that struggle to heat their homes in winter due to horrendous charges by companies that make millions upon millions and raised prices for some gimmick. If the system was proved to be vialbe then I would gladly contribute to it's development. If it worked then there would be no incentives as it would float on it's own. The exercise is a placebo by western governments to show they really care for the enviroment by supporting these snake oil schemes. At no cost to the government, no cost to the electrical supplier but to the cost of customers.

The most ironic thing in all this that perhaps 80% of the panels used in Europe are made in Japan and the far east, great carbon footprint

OK OK we seem to of hijacked the original post here and I will apologise for that BUT come on seriously you need to get to speed on your facts.

What PROOF do you need, Copy of my most recent electric bill. Photocopy of my FITS cheque? How can I proof this works to a individual who has made up their mind, possibly from misinformed information, that the technology doesn't work!

I have a 2.5Kw system on my roof. South facing. 40 degree pitch no shaddow. I live near Norwich in Norfolk and is a good area according to irradiation information. Over the past 12 months my electric bill was £1.25! Yes seriously £1.25 for the last 12 months. We are a three bed detached house, wife at home bar one day a week (Well I do make her do one days work!) 3 yr old here and at playgroup, 5 year old at school. Average house hold. Not average electric bill. I do not have a daily monitor on my system just a FITs meter, running total. Yes I get my good days and bad ones. Some days I can generate and export and others just generate. I can manage our household needs and sometimes not. The cost is not a true reflective as I fitted it and paid cost price materials so Its not fair to judge on that. If this were on a clients house with the same parameters it would pay back in 8 years and return at a average 8%. What guarantee can be given?

Tell me, How is the output or yield of a wind turbine calculated and sold to a client? This is a 11KVA turbine it will produce 11KVA per year? No! or is it calculated form average wind in that area over the last X years. The exact same thing is done with PV. We have 22years average irradiation figures to work from for a particular area, not as some think the UK in general but down to the nearest city or town. This tells you the average for that area. There's far more information needed also. Orientation of roof, Pitch angle, Height, type and make of panel type and make of inverter, DC cable length etc.

Am I seriously convinced that the FITs come from Carbon Taxes? Yes. Do I think these taxes have originated from the consumer? Yes. But its not just the hard done by consumer is it? I like the fact you focus on the OAP or poorest in society going cold in winter. I pay my utility bills just the same as you do and the rest of society so why is this not in your factors. The taxes have been paid and still will be regardless of if there's a renewable intensive and please do not forget these intensives are not just on PV there on wind turbines, biomass, micro CHP and Hydro.

The combined shared ownership scheme in the planning the FITs will go to the home owner or percentage there of dependant on share percentage. It is not a "Free of charge" scheme. Yes the cost will be on the value of the property, no different for what we do on private developments. The occupant gets the cheep electricity and the FITs. They also get the benefit of higher insulation values, rain water harvesting and air source heat pump heating systems. Not bad hey?

Thanks for your kind words of support but I'm sorry to disappoint you when I say we are prospering! I have no guilt or believe that the technology is being paid for by a starving, cold and hungry OAP shivering in a damp council flat somewhere! The industry is being supported by people who wish to invest as the banks are a crock of crap now. The developers have jumped aboard because they stand a better chance of getting planning on a renewable development than a standard one and why not be in it. High moral grounds don't put food on the table either!

With all due respect and no malice intended I will not try and swing a vote as it were. If you truly believe its a floored system for the rich who want to waste money and see the poor starve well you're entitled to your opinion. I respect that right. However I don't understand the finger pointing directed at PV and no other source of renewable. Why is this technology alone for discrimination?

Mark.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Yes we do seem to have side tracked but I think this is what forums are for. Not only to advise but to air views and opinions in the hope that it educates.

As I've always said I'm open minded and that 12 month bill of just 1.25 pounds is very impressive, it is certainly better then I would have thought, and certainly it's better than the normal figures that are given, which I believe is just 125 pounds a year saving on an average bill. You seemed to have surpassed that by quite a margin, unless you annual bill was approx 130 pounds a year without the system.

In fact it is remarkable that in that year you have used perhaps only 16KWh from the supplier at what, is it now approx 8p for a kWh, and as you have a young family and all that entails, and during the harsh winter we had, I'm impressed.

I'm sorry to say Mark I do focus on OAP's and poorer members of our society because they are the ones who struggle to pay their bills,we all struggle to pay bills, but when more than 10% of an income is used on fuel bills it is classed as hardship, and a lot of those I highlight are in hardship, and that was before these Carbon Taxes were introduced. So yes I'm afraid I do resent the fact that these people have to contribute to the benefit of already wealthier parts of society.

But after your figures I'm even more confused on why FIT's are needed. Your system is an average size I believe and I understand that not all installations will be as efficient as yours as obvious factors will come into play. But even a system 50% less efficient would only need to draw approx 25KWh from the grid a year and that would cost just 2 pound a year in electricity bills, that surely is a fantastic incentive on it's own. Of course if you do have the plus of feeding back into the system you quite rightly should be paid for that and perhaps more than the 3p that is now given.

Again Mark I'm going to have to cede to the social scheme your going to hopfully start. I thought, wrongly that it was one of those that have been started where the install is done free of charge, but the companies claim the FIT and the tenant gets the saving on the electricity, though now after your figures if that produces a yearly bill for the tenant of below 10 pounds say that will be a wonderful saving.
Though a bit confused with the part that when you say " The cost will be on the value of the property, no different to what we do on private developments'. Is this a "Green loan" the tenant or the council/housing association will be taking out?

The only thing I have to pull you up on is I never said PV does not work. I only questioned the viablility of it working in the UK without the Tariffs. In my first post I mentioned that when the System is a large free standing type, that as the abilitiy to track the sun through the day for optimum yield, PV can produce good results well worth investing in. I'm just amazed that a static system in the UK of a very small size can yield as much, considering that for 4 months of the year our daylight hours can only average 8-9hrs never mind optimum sunlight

 

[mmccx]

Can I point out the floors with sun tracking? Yes I do agree that they produce slightly more KWh's than a free standing system but they are just not economically viable. Tracking systems require power to run the motor that turns the array, moving parts = maintenance and more things to go wrong. The extra generation that a sun tracker would produce would not outweigh the costs of the power required to run it and the maintenance that it would require.

In the UK it is safe to assume that a 2kWp roof mounted or ground mounted PV system would produce roughly 1800kWh's per anum (obviously the majority of this generation occurs in the summer) if we take that example and apply the feed in tariffs to see how much it would earn in a year then we can see why PV is such a good option in the UK.

At the moment the FIT's state that for every 1 kWh generated the generator will be paid 41.3p regardless of whether it is used on site or exported back to the grid. 50% of the total generation will be paid at 3p per kWh.

so....

1800kWh * 41.3p = £743.40
900kWh (50% of total anual generation) * 3p = £27.00

so from FIT's alone the generator will recieve per anum £770.40

we then have to factor in the amount of kWh the generator will no longer be buying which is 1800kWh and multiply it by the cost of electricity which is roughly 12p per kWh at the moment

1800 * 12p = £216.00

add that to the FIT and the generator will save

£986.40 per year

and with 2kWp system costing roughly 10k to 12k the system will have paid for itself in roughly 10 years. The generator will then go on to continue earning this sum for a further 15 years, not to mention the fact that the FIT are linked to inflation so this will be likely to rise

 

[malcolmsanford]

Cheers MMCCX top post as you have finally given some figures which we can actually look at.

I think though that you have actually confirmed what I've been trying to say. I have never said that PV don't work I've always maintained that in the UK without the FIT PV is not a viable proposition.

Without the tariff the yield return will be £243 approx. With the install as you said approx 11k it would take you over 45 yrs to pay back.

Without these FIT the whole system will be unviable, and as I've tried to get through these FIT are a subsidy from the Carbon Taxes. These taxes have been realised by the electrical companies raising their tariffs and the biggest raise was on Key meters. The biggest users of those key meters are the poorer members of our society.

I'm sorry but this to me is an obscene situation. You have the poorest subsidising the the wealthiest as it is mainly people who have a disposable amount of cash ie 11k who can afford to put these systems up.

I honestly don't decry anyone for wanting to make a living. I personally could not work in this industry as it stands today. I could not justify making money from people who are not just struggling to pay their bills, but are having real hardship doing so, and having to sacfrifice others things to just pay them.

 

[Markc]

I think MMCCX has summed it up nicely.

And that is exactly how my electric bill for 12months was £1.25. I paid my supplier our normal DD payment but once I got the FITs cheques in, export tariff and reduction in purchased electricity it worked out I paid £1.25. My DD is now a nominal amount possible with or supplier £12 per month. I received a cheque for our substantial balance we had built up with our supplier after they sent THREE engineers out to see how we were fiddling the meter! Each time they noticed the panels on my roof before they came in! Funny really.

So why should I not take advantage of the scheme. I certainly do not agree that the poorest of society are paying for it, in fact I will go as far as saying they should be thanking me. Possibly an arrogant statement but I will explain:

Our current generation network is ageing, reliant on fossil fuels and in poor shape. MAJOR investment is required to upgrade and improve. Our Nuclear reactors are coming to the end of their live and need replacing. Investment in off shore wind turbines has been brisk to date but is slowly in decline due to lack of suitable sites remaining. The recent public release showing big farms off the coast still are not confirmed due to funding. Taking all this in to account work in the SSEG (Small scale embedded generator. Wind, Hydro, Biomass, PV etc) schemes are on the increase. Each one generating power and delivering surplus in to the grid. Every one putting a little back. Times these up across the nation and the generation infrastructure can be supported, aiding demand. The network is buying this power at 3p per unit and selling it on at what ever unit rate they like making profit off generation with no outlay for generation. This power is sold to each and every one of us without us even knowing it. The generated power I export from my PV array isn't lost its sold by EDF, EON, Scotish Power etc. If we need to invest in large scale new nuclear plants, alternative power stations what do you think the effect of this will be on our energy bills? I certainly believe that every new plant will indeed place a surcharge on our bills as well as increased unit costs and taxes. Hitting again those poorest in society. I can rest easy that what I export is used by our suppliers and sold on and if this means that investment in large scale plants is reduced, and I don't believe for one moment that investment will never be made, then I would say that this is reducing the need to increase the burden on our vulnerable society. So I am helping them rather than sticking my hand in their pocket.

 

[mmccx]

There are many systems installed in the uk that are payed for by councils and housing developers that are on flats and houses that are lived in by the poorer section of society. Key meters are a horrible Idea and anyone who has one should ask to have them changed as the cost of them are just so exspensive.
These fits are ultimately being payed for by the general public by increasing the cost of a kWh but the increase in cost is marginal as the number of people with systems is far outweighed by the umber of people who don't have systems. So much so that we are talking about rises of a fraction of a penny

 

[malcolmsanford]

I'm of an age now where I think I have seen most everything but then along come you Mark and I realise that I haven't.

Your posts remind me of the old group the searchers, sure you won't remember them but they wrote.

In a world of own, which no one else can share
All our troubles seem far behind us
And I know that we will find our own peace of mind
When we live in that world of our own.

You have not I don't think even read what I wrote let alone comprehend the meaning of it. Your amazing £1.25 paid for a years electricity was down in the main to the FIT.

The whole crux of my argument is these tariffs that the system without them are about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. That without the tariffs you are whistling in the wind, poking a sausage up an alley, trying to kill an elephant with a feather or any other adage you can think of.

 

[bramboy]

radio 2 between 12 and 2 i think!

 

[malcolmsanford]

ahhhhhhhhhhh a jeremy Vine man I see

 

[mmccx]

I'm of an age now where I think I have seen most everything but then along come you Mark and I realise that I haven't.

Your posts remind me of the old group the searchers, sure you won't remember them but they wrote.

In a world of own, which no one else can share
All our troubles seem far behind us
And I know that we will find our own peace of mind
When we live in that world of our own.

You have not I don't think even read what I wrote let alone comprehend the meaning of it. Your amazing £1.25 paid for a years electricity was down in the main to the FIT.

The whole crux of my argument is these tariffs that the system without them are about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. That without the tariffs you are whistling in the wind, poking a sausage up an alley, trying to kill an elephant with a feather or any other adage you can think of.

the fact of the matter is, also what you say, is that without the FIT no one would bother it wouldn't be worth it. But you seem to be missing the point of the feed in tariffs. The Fit's are in place to encourage people to buy more systems, the more people who purchase systems means that the demand for it goes up. As demand rises the industry is forced to streamline their production and ultimately make the products cheaper, modules will become more efficient and smaller, until one day the FIT's are no longer required, because eventually without them it will become viable and people will care!

But if the fit's are not there until this happens then we will continue to burn fossil fuels to power our generators to heat our homes to watch our TV's, to turn on the lights etc. Our inhabitable world is an extremely fragile ecosystem, by burning these fossil fuels we are ultimately damaging it and before you know it we will no longer have an inhabitable world! I know this sounds all a bit green and 'oh that will never happen' but I ask you, do you really want to find out?

 

[Markc]

Do you know what? I'm not even going to lower my self to a reply to that.

Good luck with what ever industry you're in and I hope it keeps you busy as what I do will keep me so!