Visual Electrical Condition Reports are they up to the task ??

[baldsparkies]

Guys,

I have rarely used these 3 page documents, mainly because I feel they have little value with regards to doing a professional job.

Sadly plenty of sparkies are covering landlords requirements with these certs.
In my humble opinion, covering the landlords lack of willingness to delve to deeply into there pockets and just have something that covers there proverbial rear end.

Anyway, in a world where you have to find work and feed the family (real world)
We have been offered a long term contract with exactly this kind of work.

Not wanting to turn it down. I phoned NICEIC because they actually produced a written cert on there website/shop catering for this kind of cert.

Apparently, no longer!!
So when the guys using them run out, they wont be able to purchase any more.
The reason given, is that many quick fix boys are abusing there use, and passing them off as cheap substitutes for an EICR. Which clearly they are not.

You can still purchase generic certs from various sources, so I am prepared to cover this work under the following circumstances.

1) Provided an EICR from a registered contractor has been completed within the last 5 years and available for viewing.

2) It is understood that a visual report is just that, and only covers (from my own perspective) limited readings.
Also it is provided on the understanding that it is NOT a substitute for a full EICR.

3) By limited readings I refer to RCD tripp times if applicable. Ze, and random limited earth loops.

Thoughts and opinions most welcome on this one lads,

Many Thanks.

 

[Des 56]

Don't get me wrong,I detest the corruption within and outside of this industry ref Eicrs

However,the landlord has the responsibility for complying with his duty of care
You are a contracted person carrying out a requested function as a competent person for that function

I assume these Niceic visual things have disclaimers already printed on them and the person ordering the work must decide if it covers their duty of care and that responsibility,it's their decision

Your responsibility is to produce a skilled persons opinion only and not to try and change electrical world

I commend your concern and opinion of this abuse, but business wise,it may be a un necessary concern to complicate what they foolishly think covers their duty of care

 

[Engineer54]

You should know yourself, that these so-called Landlords certificates are not fit for purpose, and never have been. Shame on the NICEIC for ever compiling such a certificate in the first place. Based i have no doubt, on purely and solely monetary considerations, which is par for the course!!

 

[Badged01]

Totally agree with the above. The landlord cert (visual) check is a total waste of time unless its done as a yearly check/update between full EICR's.

 

[Engineer54]

Don't get me wrong,I detest the corruption within and outside of this industry ref Eicrs

However,the landlord has the responsibility for complying with his duty of care
You are a contracted person carrying out a requested function as a competent person for that function

I assume these Niceic visual things have disclaimers already printed on them and the person ordering the work must decide if it covers their duty of care and that responsibility,it's their decision ...Maybe they found out that legally, their disclaimers meant Nothing in law and that was the main reason for withdrawing them!! lol!!

Your responsibility is to produce a skilled persons opinion only and not to try and change electrical world

I commend your concern and opinion of this abuse, but business wise,it may be a un necessary concern to complicate what they foolishly think covers their duty of care

Unfortunately the law has always been an ---, and i wouldn't trust that as such, it can't turn round and bite everyone within reach. Especially where say a house goes up in flames wiping out a complete family. They'll be wanting more than one head to role, especially if a numbty safety certificate is being waved around by the landlord or his agent!!

 

[baldsparkies]

Agree with all the above completely.
Unfortunately it leaves us all having to make a living by covering our own backsides with disclaimers, because there is no written law that says NO you cant use these because they aint up to the task end of.
But we all know that these certs will be produced and people will be making money from them.
Gas safe, don't seem to have these half measure grey area certs floating around.
Maybe its time that the powers to be did the same for the electrical industry.
But then again, I'm sure its all been said before.
I should say, that my hatred for these things follows a property visit a few years back. 3 bedroom flat, very up market, that had a full kitchen re furb.
On close inspection the Cons Unit contained a kitchen socket circuit rated at 32A.
This turned out to be an unused 6mm radial that once fed a cooker circuit.
The 6mm was connected to a 30A J/B under a plinth, which fed a 1.5mm radial feeding all the sockets in the kitchen, and yes the cable showed signs of heat damage, also an intermittent fault had been reported hence our being called out.
A visual report was produced that was 3 years old, but nothing more, and of course nothing on the report to indicate this potential fire hazard.

 

[Badged01]

Don't get me wrong you can provide for the landlord whatever paperwork he wants to pay for and you can caveat accordingly to show how little testing you have done etc ....... but whatever you do dont issue anything that says the place is safe (satisfactory) to use based on whatever little you have inspected/tested!

There isnt a law but the closest you (or the landlord) can get to a defence on an electrical safety charge is having followed the recommendations/requirements in BS7671. And that only recognises one inspection ---- the EICR --- and you have to have good 'operational' reasons etc... for not following that fully!

 

[Des 56]

Don't get me wrong you can provide for the landlord whatever paperwork he wants to pay for and you can caveat accordingly to show how little testing you have done etc ....... but whatever you do dont issue anything that says the place is safe (satisfactory) to use based on whatever little you have inspected/tested!

There isnt a law but the closest you (or the landlord) can get to a defence on an electrical safety charge is having followed the recommendations/requirements in BS7671. And that only recognises one inspection ---- the EICR --- and you have to have good 'operational' reasons etc... for not following that fully!

Reading that excellent summary,I may need to re think my own attitude to these abuses,abuses which implicate sparks in that process

 

[Octopus]

Landlord Safety Certificate = Full 100% EICR

Waste of Land Lords Funds = Visual Inspection Report

 

[Grey Master]

If you are willing to put your name to a piece of crap, expect the crap to spray back at you!

 

[baldsparkies]

If you are willing to put your name to a piece of crap, expect the crap to spray back at you!

All these comments make sense, and I agree completely.

But now look at this (reference

Product code: ​

17DVP)​

http://www.niceicdirect.com/epages/...oBasket&LastViewObjectID=5451&ViewAction=View

And there are still plenty around being used and NICEIC documents.

When you ring the NIC they have stopped producing them, and for the reasons all of you have given.

But there are people out there making money from this.
And where is the information that tells the public this kind of cert isnt worth the paper its written on ??
The NIC have stopped producing them, but have they taken the situation to task and informed the public or even sparkies that they are not acceptable.
Im afraid it doesn't look like it.

 

[Andy78]

Totally agree with the above. The landlord cert (visual) check is a total waste of time unless its done as a yearly check/update between full EICR's.

This is how I recommend visual inspection reports to landlords. I will not issue them unless I have carried out a full EICR previously. I do see that they have benefit in this capacity, to check the installation between recommended inspection intervals or on change of tenancy. It's better than not checking at all between EICRs, but I will never advocate their use as an alternative to proper testing and inspection.

 

[baldsparkies]

This is how I recommend visual inspection reports to landlords. I will not issue them unless I have carried out a full EICR previously. I do see that they have benefit in this capacity, to check the installation between recommended inspection intervals or on change of tenancy. It's better than not checking at all between EICRs, but I will never advocate their use as an alternative to proper testing and inspection.

Andy, could you just clear a point up on this.
When the NIC stated they no longer produce the visual certs.
Were they referring to the purple domestic ones or can an approved contractor still purchase them, but on the red format.
In other words can approved contractors still buy them or are they no longer available to domestic and approved alike ??

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Guys,

I have rarely used these 3 page documents, mainly because I feel they have little value with regards to doing a professional job.

Sadly plenty of sparkies are covering landlords requirements with these certs.
In my humble opinion, covering the landlords lack of willingness to delve to deeply into there pockets and just have something that covers there proverbial rear end.

Anyway, in a world where you have to find work and feed the family (real world)
We have been offered a long term contract with exactly this kind of work.

Not wanting to turn it down. I phoned NICEIC because they actually produced a written cert on there website/shop catering for this kind of cert.

Apparently, no longer!!
So when the guys using them run out, they wont be able to purchase any more.
The reason given, is that many quick fix boys are abusing there use, and passing them off as cheap substitutes for an EICR. Which clearly they are not.

You can still purchase generic certs from various sources, so I am prepared to cover this work under the following circumstances.

1) Provided an EICR from a registered contractor has been completed within the last 5 years and available for viewing.

2) It is understood that a visual report is just that, and only covers (from my own perspective) limited readings.
Also it is provided on the understanding that it is NOT a substitute for a full EICR.

3) By limited readings I refer to RCD tripp times if applicable. Ze, and random limited earth loops.

Thoughts and opinions most welcome on this one lads,

Many Thanks.

come on Bald..

they cover...as far as it says on the tin..:

that is a visual report.

no substitiute for an ECR...so if its an ECR thats required...then an ECR it is....

 

[Andy78]

Andy, could you just clear a point up on this.
When the NIC stated they no longer produce the visual certs.
Were they referring to the purple domestic ones or can an approved contractor still purchase them, but on the red format.
In other words can approved contractors still buy them or are they no longer available to domestic and approved alike ??

I have no idea. I am not a member of the NICEIC nor have ever used their certs.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I have no idea. I am not a member of the NICEIC nor have ever used their certs.

well i am..

and i wouldn`t be using any of these `visual reports`...as they aint worth the papaer they are written on...

i mean come on...no values?

 

[Andy78]

well i am..

and i wouldn`t be using any of these `visual reports`...as they aint worth the papaer they are written on...

i mean come on...no values?

I don't use any reports as issued by the schemes. If they can write their own so can I.
As said, I only use them as a supplement to EICR between the recommended intervals. This can serve as a useful annual or change of tenancy check. I only will offer to do them if I have performed an EICR previously. I don't see anything wrong with that.

A visual report instead of EICR however.... never on your nelly would I involve myself in that practice.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I don't use any reports as issued by the schemes. If they can write their own so can I.
As said, I only use them as a supplement to EICR between the recommended intervals. This can serve as a useful annual or change of tenancy check. I only will offer to do them if I have performed an EICR previously. I don't see anything wrong with that.

A visual report instead of EICR however.... never on your nelly would I involve myself in that practice.

sorry Andy but a visual report wont cut it for me on this....

so, for instance you go up newland ave, anlaby road or holderness road...you know its all renteds on them....
trust em not to have been buggerin about with the leccy?

definately a Zs ...at least.....

 

[baldsparkies]

Guys this is a report in between the 5 year EICR's and on change of tennancy.
Its NOT a substitute for an EICR and we all know that.
The point is they ARE being completed by sparkies in between A full EICR and due to the lesser work for less money. But money never the less.
If you look at the link and read the reports there are disclaimers to the affect that they are visual only.
I suppose they are saying a full EICR isnt due, but due to change of tennancy and as a duty of care. They want a visual check conducted by professionals, rather than nothing at all.
Unless these certs are totally outlawed, and whilst the customer has a choice, they will go for this option.
Otherwise in theory, a new tennant could move in every year, and over 5 years you would be looking at 5 EICR's for the same install.
You may as well say the EICR lasts 5 years so wait until the next one falls due.
Or have a visual done in the interim.
Thats the point. Is there a place for these interim certs or not.
And NO we arent talking about a substitute for the EICR.
Like I said people are making money out of these things, but is there a place for them if used as intended. ???

 

[Andy78]

@ Glenn
Sorry should have been clearer. Annual or change of tenancy, whichever is soonest. This allows for 6 month contracts.
And yes, my self devised reports contain Zs values.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

@ Glenn
Sorry should have been clearer. Annual or change of tenancy, whichever is soonest. This allows for 6 month contracts.
And yes, my self devised reports contain Zs values.

:smiley2:.....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Guys this is a report in between the 5 year EICR's and on change of tennancy.
Its NOT a substitute for an EICR and we all know that.
The point is they ARE being completed by sparkies in between A full EICR and due to the lesser work for less money. But money never the less.
If you look at the link and read the reports there are disclaimers to the affect that they are visual only.
I suppose they are saying a full EICR isnt due, but due to change of tennancy and as a duty of care. They want a visual check conducted by professionals, rather than nothing at all.
Unless these certs are totally outlawed, and whilst the customer has a choice, they will go for this option.
Otherwise in theory, a new tennant could move in every year, and over 5 years you would be looking at 5 EICR's for the same install.
You may as well say the EICR lasts 5 years so wait until the next one falls due.
Or have a visual done in the interim.
Thats the point. Is there a place for these interim certs or not.
And NO we arent talking about a substitute for the EICR.
Like I said people are making money out of these things, but is there a place for them if used as intended. ???

problem here bald...

is where is the line drawn?

after all its only a recommendation is condition reporting....

we all know that councils & such require it but....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

@ Glenn
Sorry should have been clearer. Annual or change of tenancy, whichever is soonest. This allows for 6 month contracts.
And yes, my self devised reports contain Zs values.

at least you have made a box for values to be put in...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Totally agree with the above. The landlord cert (visual) check is a total waste of time unless its done as a yearly check/update between full EICR's.

still only covers the bits you see....

 

[Badged01]

QUOTE=baldsparkies;908435] Otherwise in theory, a new tennant could move in every year, and over 5 years you would be looking at 5 EICR's for the same install. [/QUOTE]

Yep thats the recommendation in BS7671, 5yrs and 'change' is when you do the EICR. That’s what covers your butt should anything happen and the HSE want a quiet word with you. But what you can do on the EICR under the reasons for completing and limit of inspection, is put a statement around when the last EICR was done, any visuals done since then, and why for this EICR you are only doing what you do.

As long as you can justify your 'engineering' judgement for why the now reduced level of inspection/test is sufficient then you can declare the property "Satisfactory" (safe?) for continued use. Thats what your signature is saying, the property is now 'Satisfactory' for a new tenant! If a visual inspection does that you are a braver man than me.

 

[Badged01]

You may as well say the EICR lasts 5 years so wait until the next one falls due Or have a visual done in the interim.

Thats right, if your professional engineering assessment has said 5 yrs (or 1 or 3) then thats what it is. However, guidance is that you shouldn’t wait the full time between EICRs but conduct "routine checks" as stipulated by the "electrical dutyholder" -- for me the landlord (another recommendation that passes the buck down to the layman!). A routine check is basically the 'visual' inspection to check everything looks OK, hasn’t been misused, broken, switches work etc … and the landlord himself can do this, it doesn’t need an 'electrical professional'. (There is no requirement for getting the test meter out!).

I can’t see any guidance given on the form to use for this 'routine inspection' so use whatever you want if doing it on behalf of the “electrical dutyholder”. Just make sure you caveat/exclude so much that you aren’t effectively saying from what you have checked/seen and using your knowledge and experience as an ‘electrical professional’, that everything is satisfactory (safe) for further use. That’s what the landlord is wanting from you to cover his butt (landlords safety certificate/cheap EICR), or else he would have done the routine/visual check himself(?), its not rocket science!. The £50(?) he is paying you is well worth it for him.

Personally, I won’t do ‘visuals’, the money v risk isn’t worth it. I only do EICRs, get someone else to do your visuals! Once my names on any bit of paperwork as an ‘electrical professional’ (visual or otherwise), Im exposed if something goes wrong. I can just see the defence lawyer, “But surely as a fully trained, experienced and professionally competent electrician holding the 2391 qualification, you would have realised from your visual inspection that what the landlord was requesting wasn’t enough etc …… and investigated further or refused to do the check initially on what he was suggesting needed doing. My client was relying on you as an electrical professional to ensure his property was safe for his tenants, which is why he brought you in, you have let him down badly”.

Visual inspections can open up a whole can of worms! Let the routine stuff (visuals) be done by the landlords/tenants and the inspection/tests (EICR) by done by the electrical professionals …… here endeth Saturdays sermon!

 

[baldsparkies]

Badged,
Thats a very good sermon mate, Saturday or any other day.
I think you have nailed it.
The company involved has a lot of properties so a lot of tests.
Approved contractors are currently covering this work, and doing so with NICEIC official Visual Inspection Reports.
You can see them on any google search, and it amazes me that they even say, on those NICEIC forms.
This is an important safety document and should be retained for future reference blah,blah,blah. It also refers to VISUALLY satisfactory and VISUALLY unsatisfactory.
I kid you not, just have a look.
Considering ELECSIA and the NIC have recently joined together at the hip, and the amount of rhetoric that comes from that corner about safety, due diligence, and good electrical practice.
You have to wonder why the hell these things ever came to exist, and what they are allowing the landlords ect to get away with.
At the same time, sparkies could be using an official document, from a recognised governing body that has all the makings of dropping you right in the poo poo.
That why I am trying to get to the bottom of what these visuals are really all about.
Because rest assured there are guys making money out of these things
I wish I had asked the NICEIC if the these visuals are still available to improved contractors. I simply asked if there shop was still selling Domestic visual Inspection reports.
The girl said no.
I said why not ?
She passed me to technical (obviously she didnt know)
Technical said, because they have been open to abuse, and are not to be used to replace an EICR.
I KNOW THAT common sense prevail. But then what ARE they to be used for, WHY do or did the NIC produce them in the first place. And are they still available to approved contractors, or are those contractors just using up the ones they still have??
I appreciate all your replies, but I am going to ring the NIC again on monday and get this cleared up.
Makes me mad, that a governing body would produce official certificate that leaves its members totally vulnerable should the poo hit the fan.
And from what I can see just drop those certificates at the blink of an eye, with no warning or official statement of any kind, just because they have had a change of heart, and to cover themselves.
The technical guy was slagging the things as having no proper place in the professional electricians world. But hang on old chap, the organisation you work for has been selling the bl**dy things for years. !!!!

 

[Octopus]

How ANYONE can say a property is safe by walking round and looking is beyond me UNLESS the individual concerned had previously done a 100% full EICR

 

[Badged01]

I think the problem with the 'visual' is like anything you do, you can get away with it and no-one is any the wiser ..... until something goes wrong!

 

[Engineer54]

Badged,
Thats a very good sermon mate, Saturday or any other day.
I think you have nailed it.
The company involved has a lot of properties so a lot of tests.
Approved contractors are currently covering this work, and doing so with NICEIC official Visual Inspection Reports.
You can see them on any google search, and it amazes me that they even say, on those NICEIC forms.
This is an important safety document and should be retained for future reference blah,blah,blah. It also refers to VISUALLY satisfactory and VISUALLY unsatisfactory.
I kid you not, just have a look.
Considering ELECSIA and the NIC have recently joined together at the hip, and the amount of rhetoric that comes from that corner about safety, due diligence, and good electrical practice.
You have to wonder why the hell these things ever came to exist, and what they are allowing the landlords ect to get away with.
At the same time, sparkies could be using an official document, from a recognised governing body that has all the makings of dropping you right in the poo poo.
That why I am trying to get to the bottom of what these visuals are really all about.
Because rest assured there are guys making money out of these things
I wish I had asked the NICEIC if the these visuals are still available to improved contractors. I simply asked if there shop was still selling Domestic visual Inspection reports.
The girl said no.
I said why not ?
She passed me to technical (obviously she didnt know)
Technical said, because they have been open to abuse, and are not to be used to replace an EICR.
I KNOW THAT common sense prevail. But then what ARE they to be used for, WHY do or did the NIC produce them in the first place. And are they still available to approved contractors, or are those contractors just using up the ones they still have??
I appreciate all your replies, but I am going to ring the NIC again on monday and get this cleared up.
Makes me mad, that a governing body would produce official certificate that leaves its members totally vulnerable should the poo hit the fan.
And from what I can see just drop those certificates at the blink of an eye, with no warning or official statement of any kind, just because they have had a change of heart, and to cover themselves.
The technical guy was slagging the things as having no proper place in the professional electricians world. But hang on old chap, the organisation you work for has been selling the bl**dy things for years. !!!!

Welcome to the money making fantasy world of the Part Pee Scammers!! lol!!

By the way, none of these scammers are ''governing bodies'', (though a couple like to THINK that they are) except to their own company policy....