Water Distiller Keeps Shorting

[Jonathan Adams]

Hi Folks,

Ive got an elderly water distiller that packed in a few weeks ago, with a suspected blown heating element (kept tripping the main fuse).
Sent away for new parts, installed them and now it just blows the local fuse, accompanied by a flash and a bang.
Ive been over it all with a multimeter and can't for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong.
I've replaced the thermal reset switch as well.
Attached is a pic showing the connections - I'd really appreciate any advice or suggestions.
Many thanks

 

[telectrix]

suggest IR testing next.

 

[Pete999]

Hi Folks,

Ive got an elderly water distiller that packed in a few weeks ago, with a suspected blown heating element (kept tripping the main fuse).
Sent away for new parts, installed them and now it just blows the local fuse, accompanied by a flash and a bang.
Ive been over it all with a multimeter and can't for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong.
I've replaced the thermal reset switch as well.
Attached is a pic showing the connections - I'd really appreciate any advice or suggestions.
Many thanks

View attachment 38948

Would have been more cost effective to get someone in to look at your equipment who is qualified to do son. sorry to be so blunt, but would you start messing with your Gas boiler if it went US?

 

[Jonathan Adams]

I thought this was a place for advice rather than admonishments, Pete...

 

[Jonathan Adams]

suggest IR testing next.

IR testing?

 

[Pete999]

I thought this was a place for advice rather than admonishments, Pete...

I wasn't admonishing you Jonathan, that was my advice, what you must appreciate is fault finding is not just a case of changing the thing you think is faulty. it's actually a case of tracing the fault, in many cases it will be a simple problem which can be resolved easily, however some faults are more difficult to resolve.
Changing equipment is not always the answer.
If I have offended you that was not my intention, my point was if you are proficient at administration, or service providing then stick to what you are good at.
Many safety problems can be bypassed by folk, trying to save money and time by trying to resolve a problem, that they have very little knowledge of, my point about the Gas fitter was valid, electricity, is as dangerous as Gas, more so in fact as you can't smell it, until it has burnt you to a crisp, so I'll stand by my advice, there was never an intention to be little you at all, so please take my post as it was intended, safety first, hope you get your problem sorted.

 

[ipf]

IR testing?

Nah....finger test'll do!

 

[Midwest]

Looks a bit elderly to me, and I'm not referring to Pete or Tel

Where does this water distilling machine do its business?

 

[Jonathan Adams]

I see this isn't really a forum for advice, just a place for the smug and self-righteous to sneer at DIYers.

 

[telectrix]

it's past beer o'clock on a wet sunday, yous bound to get a bit of unhelpful comments, but as pete says, finding faults is a dark art in itself. i'm only good at ti coz i sold my soul to Theakston's.

 

[Jonathan Adams]

Looks a bit elderly to me, and I'm not referring to Pete or Tel

Where does this water distilling machine do its business?

Hi Midwest. Thanks for your reply. It's installed in a shed right now.

 

[Taylortwocities]

IR testing?

Insulation Resistance. A basic test, needs special tester that stuffs 500 or 1000 volts up something to see if there's a breakdown in the insulation, etc.
Every electrician has (should have) one.

 

[Midwest]

Hi Midwest. Thanks for your reply. It's installed in a shed right now.

Don't get paly with me I've been know to turn.......only joking . OP take a chill pill, you'll get some banter, but your also get some good advise, if you stay around.

 

[Jonathan Adams]

it's past beer o'clock on a wet sunday, yous bound to get a bit of unhelpful comments, but as pete says, finding faults is a dark art in itself. i'm only good at ti coz i sold my soul to Theakston's.

Understood. Thanks for your input. Are you saying that the symptoms I'm getting might be caused by degraded insulation? It's possible that they may have become corroded by the steam, but I cant find any place where the insulation is actually breached.

 

[telectrix]

meanwhile, might have to actually buy a bottle of whisky, till the still is fixed.

 

[Midwest]

Hi Midwest. Thanks for your reply. It's installed in a shed right now.

If its in a damp shed, that might be the issue. Incidentally, why have you got a distiller, not making some nice hooch are yers?

 

[telectrix]

Understood. Thanks for your input. Are you saying that the symptoms I'm getting might be caused by degraded wiring? It's possible that they may have become corroded by the steam, but I cant find any place where the insulation is actually breached.

to be honest. it could be anything. is it tripping a MCB/fuse, or a RCD?

 

[Midwest]

Have to say looking at all those connections and bits & bobs, it does look a bit dodge whah, electrical wise not illicit still wise.

 

[westward10]

Does it blow the fuse immediately.

 

[ipf]

I see this isn't really a forum for advice, just a place for the smug and self-righteous to sneer at DIYers.

Have you tried the reset?

 

[Jonathan Adams]

to be honest. it could be anything. is it tripping a MCB/fuse, or a RCD?

Previously the large RCCB switch would trip (reckoned the culprit was the heater element). Since I replaced the components its now only the MCB.

 

[Midwest]

Does it blow the fuse immediately.

Eh up the generals arrived. I'm off to cook the Sunday Lunch err tea.

 

[Jonathan Adams]

Does it blow the fuse immediately.

Yes, instantly. Big flash and pfzzt as well

 

[Wilko]

This is where I'd refer to the manufacturer's wiring diagram or the pic I took of it on my phone before I took it apart ... If you've neither then you need a way to work through this that doesn't involve a long series of bang tests. Perhaps one of the wires is now shorting out the supply, so maybe a battery and a lamp?

 

[Midwest]

This is where I'd refer to the manufacturer's wiring diagram or the pic I took of it on my phone before I took it apart ... If you've neither then you need a way to work through this that doesn't involve a long series of bang tests. Perhaps one of the wires is now shorting out the supply, so maybe a battery and a lamp?

Perhaps the replacement element is duff? Put the spuds on love!

 

[Octopus]

It's amazing how people think they can fix something like this without knowledge, experience and some expensive test kit that you know how to use.

What is it used for?

 

[Ian1981]

I’m just gonna put it out there.
Why is there a black wire connected to a red one?

 

[westward10]

I’m just gonna put it out there.
Why is there a black wire connected to a red one?

To make it go bang.

 

[Wilko]

I’m just gonna put it out there.
Why is there a black wire connected to a red one?

I was thinking that in #24 but didn't dare say it

 

[Ian1981]

I was thinking that in #24 but didn't dare say it

I know nothing of the internal wiring but red with black seems like a no no and the op has messed about with it.
It might be a before pic I don’t know

 

[westward10]

As suggested above you need to do a plan of the wiring and components if you don't have one and progressively test parts of it but this is going to be difficult without test equipment you cannot keep plugging it in to see if the fuse holds.

 

[Ian1981]

I was thinking that in #24 but didn't dare say it

Ha you chicken

 

[westward10]

I know nothing of the internal wiring but red with black seems like a no no and the op has messed about with it.
It might be a before pic I don’t know

I thought the same but there seems to be several black lives on the micro switches.

 

[Ian1981]

I thought the same but there seems to be several black lives on the micro switches.

Just doesn’t look right does it?

 

[Jonathan Adams]

None of the wiring has been altered since I bought it. The only time its been undone is to replace components, which I've done several times over the years, without any problems. Red to black? Agreed damned strange, but its Canadian originally - maybe that's a thing?..

 

[Des 56]

Jonathon,best not to operate the equipment until the fault is sorted,you may end up roasting the switches etc if they are dead shorting
I suggest you try and firstly get hold of a wiring diagram, use your meter to trace the circuit connections to be sure they are as they should be

 

[Jonathan Adams]

Jonathon,best not to operate the equipment until the fault is sorted,you may end up roasting the switches etc if they are dead shorting
I suggest you try and firstly get hold of a wiring diagram, use your meter to trace the circuit connections to be sure they are as they should be

I'm awaiting an up-to-date wiring diagram from the manufacturers, but so far some sort of short on the live seems the most likely explanation - just have to find it! And no. -I have non intention of trying to use it 'til its fixed

 

[Pete999]

I thought this was a place for advice rather than admonishments, Pete...

 

[freddo]

I thought the same but there seems to be several black lives on the micro switches.

They might be neutrals, it's common for appliances to have switches in the neutral.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

None of the wiring has been altered since I bought it. The only time its been undone is to replace components, which I've done several times over the years, without any problems. Red to black? Agreed damned strange, but its Canadian originally - maybe that's a thing?..

Before you got involved it was tripping the RCD, this would be an earth fault most likely an element which you have replaced. Now it is blowing the fuse, not the RCD. This would suggest two possibilities.
1. The original fault remains but the RCD is now Knackered.
2. There is no longer an earth fault but a dead short L-N, that would suggest the element that you have replaced was causing the earth fault but the replacement has been wrongly connected.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Yes, if you are now immediately tripping the MCB with a bang you probably have a hard short from L to N that you created either by
a) damaging a cable (unlikely, would probably cause earth fault in which case RCD would tend to trip too / instead)
b) making an incorrect connection during reassembly
c) fitting a new part with an internal short (only applies to parts with both L & N present

So get out your meter, put it on 200 ohms across the plug pins and satisfy yourself the short is there. Then start opening circuits - turn off the switches, operate the float microswitches, to see which if any disconnect the short. If none, then start disconnecting likely contenders - e.g. what happens if you disconnect the output leads from the thermal cutout?

Hang on, are you sure that thermal cutout is correctly connected? I don't know the specific unit but looking at its shape, I would sort of expect 1 & 2 to be L and N in, and 3 & 4 to be L & N out, so that one pole of the switch is each side of the fixing screws. You've got it rotated through 90° relative to that, so that 2 & 4 are the input. If that is incorrect, and I am truly not sure, then it will short the L & N together and trip the MCB (and the rest of the unit will be immaterial as it won't even be connected to the mains). You can soon check this with the meter, or look it up if you know the part number. This is just a hunch... don't go by hunches use your meter!

 

[freddo]

don't know the specific unit but looking at its shape, I would sort of expect 1 & 2 to be L and N in, and 3 & 4 to be L & N out,

On these stats it's 1&3 are the supply, 2&4 are the load. Here is a diagram of the limit stat (attached to a control stat):

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Ah thanks Freddo, so OP ignore my comment about this possibly being the fault, it was only a (wrong) hunch.

 

[w0z]

Worrying for the safety of the OP that he may not know how to trace a basic short. My guess is that the connections of the new element were assumed incorrectly to be the same as the original and what would be a common (assume neutral although labelled L2 in diagram above) connection has been transposed to one of the lives, or it’s just been connected wrongly.
It seems unlikely the new element would be faulty, but easily checked. As said, meter on low ohms range across L-N in, repeat with switched in other positions, then disconnect the element and repeat. It would help to know the wattage of the elements to give you a guide of what resistance to expect, but around 30 ohms would be approx 2kW, compared to less than a few ohms which would be a bang.
Don’t continue unless you know what you’re doing!