G
Gardner
Is such a system (230 volt L-L) legal under BS7671 or IEC 60364? Do I need double pole switches for light fittings?
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No definately illegal. 5 years, no parole.Is such a system (230 volt L-L) legal under BS7671 or IEC 60364? Do I need double pole switches for light fittings?
No definately illegal. 5 years, no parole.
Think the measurement may have been taken between taking two lines of cocaine lolAm I missing something? Where or how are you measuring 230v between two lines?
Am I missing something? Where or how are you measuring 230v between two lines?
Hang about... Do you live in some weird part of the world?
Probably Derbyshire.Hang about... Do you live in some weird part of the world?
When you say 'system' is the building supply 2 phases as you describe without a neutral or is this just a final circuit.Is such a system (230 volt L-L) legal under BS7671 or IEC 60364? Do I need double pole switches for light fittings?
Cape Town.Where do you live?
Since 133V isn't a normal supply voltage, SP loads would all have to be connected L-L and for practical purposes it would be used as a delta supply. Whilst delta power is common for certain applications, e.g. shipboard, it can make things a lot harder. All switching and OCP must be DP, so you can't use 13A plugs for example.
Illegal - no, but not terribly useful for most applications and a general purpose electrical installation fed that way might be considered unfit for purpose.
When you say 'system' is the building supply 2 phases as you describe without a neutral or is this just a final circuit.
Either way the answer is yes in most places on the planet (including Derbyshire....wherever it may be), you'd need every point of consumption including light fittings to be supplied by a double pole switch.
I think England is in Derbyshire and Derbyshire is part of the UK, but I might be wrong .
Yes, lights would need DP switching otherwise the lampholder would still be live w.r.t. earth with the switch off.
You pull the plug out! BTW, the very reason that Schuko isn't polarised, is that this method of supply was once used in Germany, and there was no advantage polarising the connector when both sides were lines. But that was phased out (see what I did there?) in favour of ordinary star 230/400.
The wiring of buildings comes under a different set of regulations than the construction of portable appliances. For a start, BS7671 is specific to the UK (although it references and relies on many harmonised standards) whereas appliances in the EU are generally applicable anywhere.
Can someone quote the OP the reg number of '...must break all line conductors...'?
You couldn't use screw lampholders on this systwm you are proposing as the regulations require that line only be connected to the centre pin and neutral to the outer contact. You would have to use BC for GLS lampsBut if its ok for a table lamp, why would it be different for a light fitting? Unless the socket is designed to denergize the screw shell when removing the bulb?
Double pole switches would be easy, but 2 way switches would be a challenge.
You couldn't use screw lampholders on this systwm you are proposing as the regulations require that line only be connected to the centre pin and neutral to the outer contact. You would have to use BC for GLS lamps
How do table lamps get away with Schuko plugs though? Id imagine some safety mechanism is used on those sockets.
Am I missing something? Where or how are you measuring 230v between two lines?
How do table lamps get away with Schuko plugs though? Id imagine some safety mechanism is used on those sockets.
Thanks
Id argue the same risks with a lamp also apply to a light fitting.
I think it's a hypothetical question, I didn't get the impression that the OP was actually measuring this voltage. But systems that work in this way do exist, shipboard delta supply was one I mentioned. I also have a 20kVA generating set of the same voltage, 133V L-N, 230V L-L, but it's corner-grounded so the neutral star point is of no use and isn't brought out to the panel. You can have two supplies of 230V sharing what looks like a neutral, but when you measure between them, instead of 400V, you get 230V again because they're 60° apart not 120°.
Schuko plugs aren't used in this country so there is no point attempting to apply our regs to them
We seem to be going round in circles, because we don't know your motivation in asking the question and hence what parameters you are aiming to specify.
Do you have equipment that you want to operate in the UK that expects such a supply? Or do you want to apply BS7671 to an installation outside the UK with this supply configuration? Or is it purely an academic question?
The UK LV electrical supply is standardised as 230/400 with one leg of single phase supplies at or near ground potential, for general applications. For specific purposes, you can use whatever voltage and configuration is necessary, but not for the general wiring of buildings.
The specification of the supply delivered to the consumer's terminals falls outside the scope of BS7671, governed instead by the ESQCR.
Portable appliances are also outside the scope of BS7671 and must achieve pan-EU compatibility in order to be CE-marked and hence permissible to sell. As per posts 19 & 29, a portable appliance has double-pole isolation inherent when unplugged, so does not require special provisions for compatibility with supplies of unknown polarity.
FFS just answer the question as to your location or do the mods need to look at your IP address?
Its not that difficult question is it?
Why does it matter? I am using IEC60364 with electricity obeying the same laws of physics regardless where that job will take place. Location will not answer my questions as to what a code or reg itself requires.
Cape Town.
Why does it matter? I am using IEC60364 with electricity obeying the same laws of physics regardless where that job will take place. Location will not answer my questions as to what a code or reg itself requires.
Very simply because when posters with hold facts, you start wondering what the F is going on..... why would concealing your location really matter?
But the regulations change according to location,
Part p is an building reg, nothing to do with IET.Thats not even a valid answer. I know of many instances where foreign codes are applied in another country such as for example NFPA70 in US military installations inside the Middle East. Second many poor countries use the raw IEC60364 with little change. Third its possible to wire any building in the UK with say the German or French regs provided part P can be proven as fulfilled.
Thats not even a valid answer. I know of many instances where foreign codes are applied in another country such as for example NFPA70 in US military installations inside the Middle East. Second many poor countries use the raw IEC60364 with little change. Third its possible to wire any building in the UK with say the German or French regs provided part P can be proven as fulfilled.
Has the OP won this fishing match yet? ... His keep-net is full...:biggrinjester:
Is such a system (230 volt L-L) legal under BS7671 or IEC 60364? Do I need double pole switches for light fittings?
You cannot fulfill the requirements of part P with an installation designed to any regs other than bs7671
Part p is an building reg, nothing to do with IET.
Not in the UK we adhere to BS7671Exactly my point. I could wire a building with German regs, nothing holds me to BS7671.
Nowhere do the building regs say BS7671 must be used.
It is possible to design and construct an installation which uses such a supply in accordance with bs7671. However bs7671 is not law and so compliance with it cannot be described as legal. The law which governs electricity supplies in the uk is the electricity supply quality and continuity regulations (esqcr) which may prohibit such a supply from being provided to a customer.
Under bs7671 you would need to break all conductors which are not referenced to earth at substantially the same time, so yes you would need to provide double pole switching for light fittings.
Further to this you cannot use bs1363 plugs and sockets on such a supply as they are fused in one pole only, as a result the ring final circuit would not be useable. You would need to use a plug and socket system which is not fused or polarised, you may be able to use bs546 plugs and sockets for this.
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