Find electrician to trace earth leakage

[naylorpd]

OK, so this is a follow-on to my thread about unsatisfactory EICR.

There is a big inconsistency in that the EICR reports all the L-E IR as >100 Megs, but the inspector also comments about earth leakage in two ring mans and one lighting circuit. This seems to be stopping me from replacing the CU and related C2 problems because RCDs will trip constantly (as I understand it).

The guy that did the EICR advised that the earth leakage was measured and the readings were off the scale, and he just didn't change the software defaults on IR (I interpret... he didn't check IR at all).

So my plan of action is to engage someone else to trace the faults, ideally on an hourly rate (probably plus call-out). I need to find that someone (in Reading/Tilehurst) - preferably experienced in fault-finding and not just installation.

What qualifications and experience do I need to look for and ask about? Which is likely to be more suitable, NAPIT or NICEIC?

What's involved in doing this kind of fault-finding? Is it likely to mean disconnecting all the sockets and light switches to test the bare cables?

Thanks

 

[Octopus]

What a shambles.

I suggest you demand a refund and get the EICR done by a spark who is independent of the estate agent

Also what are these earth leakage readings? Do you have the numbers ?

 

[Jim_e_Jib]

What a shambles.

I suggest you demand a refund and get the EICR done by a spark who is independent of the estate agent

Also what are these earth leakage readings? Do you have the numbers ?

There can't be any numbers - they were 'off the scale' ;-)

 

[Dustydazzler]

As above the first thing is what are the actual physically measured earth leakage reading ?

Did he disconnect and unplug all appliances and electronic equipment before testing for leakage to earth

did he use a good quality digital earth leakage meter ?

 

[Pete999]

OK, so this is a follow-on to my thread about unsatisfactory EICR.

There is a big inconsistency in that the EICR reports all the L-E IR as >100 Megs, but the inspector also comments about earth leakage in two ring mans and one lighting circuit. This seems to be stopping me from replacing the CU and related C2 problems because RCDs will trip constantly (as I understand it).

The guy that did the EICR advised that the earth leakage was measured and the readings were off the scale, and he just didn't change the software defaults on IR (I interpret... he didn't check IR at all).

So my plan of action is to engage someone else to trace the faults, ideally on an hourly rate (probably plus call-out). I need to find that someone (in Reading/Tilehurst) - preferably experienced in fault-finding and not just installation.

What qualifications and experience do I need to look for and ask about? Which is likely to be more suitable, NAPIT or NICEIC?

What's involved in doing this kind of fault-finding? Is it likely to mean disconnecting all the sockets and light switches to test the bare cables?

Thanks

Just because an Electrician, is a member of the schemes you mention, doesn't make Him or Her any better than someone who isn't a member of such a Scheme.

 

[naylorpd]

I don't have the readings, just that they were done with an earth leakage tester and were off the scale.

Actually I can live with the EICR because I was intending to replace the CU anyway which will close out two C2s and two C3s, and another two C2s and C3 are easy. I'll ignore the C3 on cables not buried >50mm, it's nonsense. The C3 on cable identification on light switches could perhaps be done at the same time as fault testing, but anyway it's only a C3.

My first suspicion is that he hasn't considered the USB charger sockets properly - just said that he's "not had problems with them before". I put these in last year, but an EICR in 2013 didn't have any earth leakage.

I'm actually in the UK next week so will have a good look around and prepare a plan for where all the sockets are, which circuit they are on etc. I don't currently have a plan like that but it should save time (and hence money) on someone else doing that before starting to test.

I don't think the agent has done anything wrong, the inspector was properly accredited (NAPIT). But the concern is that if I have this shambles from one accredited inspector, how do I find and trust another who will do the job properly?

 

[Wilko]

Oh dear.
Current can only flow in the E if there is a path to it. If the loads are removed then it must be via a fairly low resistance to L to E in the wiring. Let's say 10k Ohms to get 24mA at 240V, which would likely trip the RCD. This low resistance is very obvious in an insulation resistance test. So which is it - 100m Ohms on the report or 10k Ohms ... I'm thinking Mr EICR made a measurement error with either the IR or earth leakage tests.

 

[naylorpd]

Just because an Electrician, is a member of the schemes you mention, doesn't make Him or Her any better than someone who isn't a member of such a Scheme.

In reality no, but members of the public are encouraged to use accredited tradesmen because it supposedly gives them more assurance about the quality of workmanship.
As a landlord I have to be able to show that I took reasonable care in having my home tested (and soon worked on) by someone competent to do the job.

 

[Octopus]

I don't think the agent has done anything wrong, the inspector was properly accredited (NAPIT). But the concern is that if I have this shambles from one accredited inspector, how do I find and trust another who will do the job properly?

I disagree - the agent recommended a trades person who has provided a report that has elements of fiction............

USB sockets won't give "off the scale" earth leakage

You need to get another spark to do a proper EICR.............even if you ask them to "just" inspect the socket and lighting circuits, you would get a "view" of the accuracy of the initial report.

I would offer but you are too far away

 

[westward10]

The problem here is you are trying to get solutions from a load of misinformation. As Doc says above you need to draw a line under this and start again.

 

[Wilko]

If he's IR tested the USB sockets L-E at 500V it could be nasty ...
Testing USB wall mounted sockets - https://uk.megger.com/electrical-tester-contractor-edition/june-2015/testing-usb-wall-mounted-sockets

 

[naylorpd]

As Doc says above you need to draw a line under this and start again.

But it comes back to what criteria I can use to assess whether someone is going to be competent....
- NICEIC?
- NAPIT?
- Checkatrade?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Naylorpd

A video you may find of interest

 

[Octopus]

But it comes back to what criteria I can use to assess whether someone is going to be competent....
- NICEIC?
- NAPIT?
- Checkatrade?

Certainly not checkatrade - loads of feedback is false and they won't publish any negative feedback

I would say personal recommendation is the best way - and try and find somebody very local.....

 

[Dustydazzler]

Personal recommendation and gut feel

 

[Jim_e_Jib]

If he's IR tested the USB sockets L-E at 500V it could be nasty ...
Testing USB wall mounted sockets - https://uk.megger.com/electrical-tester-contractor-edition/june-2015/testing-usb-wall-mounted-sockets

I do always wonder if there is a reason why the SMPS in these sockets isn't fed from the switch. It seems to be a simple solution to the problem and means you're not leaving the power supply permanently on.

 

[Deleted account]

But it comes back to what criteria I can use to assess whether someone is going to be competent....
- NICEIC?
- NAPIT?
- Checkatrade?

I'm embarased to say you can't rely on any of these. You will get good and bad in each of these companies.
I'm part of niceic and know they inform you whether a contractor has relevant qualification in EICR. Not sure about others. Unfortunately even getting a contractor with this qual does not nessisarily mean getting a good experienced spark.

Due to shortage of sparkies in the industry it is flooded with inexperienced or undertrained or miss trained sparks.

Sorry not very useful, but true. Alway go with word of mouth if you can.

I think you have done everything you can to get a decent spark. He is registered and he was recommended by your agent.

 

[naylorpd]

Naylorpd
A video you may find of interest

Yes, interesting in many ways, including seeing an earth leakage test and what caused it. I don't think I've run a nail through anything!

The comment in the last 30 seconds is about where I'm at...how do you know they are not competent if they have a NAPIT number...how do you protect yourself against that...

 

[Deleted account]

Yes, interesting in many ways, including seeing an earth leakage test and what caused it. I don't think I've run a nail through anything!

The comment in the last 30 seconds is about where I'm at...how do you know they are not competent if they have a NAPIT number...how do you protect yourself against that...

Post 15 dustydazzler gives best advice there is.

 

[naylorpd]

If he's IR tested the USB sockets L-E at 500V it could be nasty ...
Testing USB wall mounted sockets - https://uk.megger.com/electrical-tester-contractor-edition/june-2015/testing-usb-wall-mounted-sockets

As he doesn't say that he disconnected the USB sockets, if he did the test he could have fried them? So I should be hoping that he didn't actually do the IR test?

That raises another whole issue - these USB sockets are very readily available at all electrical stores, DIY stores etc. but can't survive a standard IR test at 500V. I bet the average homeowner doesn't know that.

 

[littlespark]

Its not just USB sockets that can get fried.... Electronic dimmer switches, PIR sensors, LED lights... nothing with electronics like having the 500vDC pumped through it.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I learnt this the hard way and fried part of a pcb in a brand new boiler

Once bitten twice shy

 

[The Ghost]

Let us rewind a moment to the beginning. You say you made clear that you wanted a CU change. It is common practice to check earthing arrangements and leakage as a minimum prior to changing. As if there are earth leaks we all know this will lead to tripping of the RCD and the fault will have to be rectified. They were no doubt essentially assaying the state of your circuits prior to that change and that was the main thrust of their inspection. Having established there was earth leaks I think I would have done IR tests to establish to what degree and where exactly the leakage was. So normally we would test then split the circuit in half and test each half and then a quarter until we had narrowed down what part or maybe all of the circuit is damaged/causing such readings. They did put F.I. for the problem of earth leakage which is saying at a certain point they would investigate. In doing an EICR we are only to inspect and report the condition of the installation. We are NOT to rectify. This means any remedial work or F.I. would be done after the report and reliant on the instructions of the person ordering the work (you) If you are unsure of the skill of the person doing the EICR as I said you ensure probity by getting another party to do the remedials and thus cross check. I personally would give the professional courtesy of the benefit of the doubt and assume the IR testing would be done later in this case when you ordered the remedials. They obviously assumed they would be getting the remedial work and left it as a work in progress. I think that is the best gloss I can put on it.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Not sure that’s correct Vortigern.
The other thread indicates an EICR was conducted and the recommendation is for a new CU (among other things).

 

[naylorpd]

I knew I needed a new CU because the old one has MCBs and not RCDs. Should I have done that before the EICR?

For better or worse, this saga has thrown up the IR/earth leak problem that I didn't know about before.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I knew I needed a new CU because the old one has MCBs and not RCDs. Should I have done that before the EICR?

For better or worse, this saga has thrown up the IR/earth leak problem that I didn't know about before.

Thing is, the EICR (apart from the erroneous comment about requiring an RCD for fault protection) does not indicate a new CU is required.
Code C3 just means improvement recommended, not a dangerous situation.
I would be very disappointed with the FI code, as it’s basically saying they’ve conducted an Inspection and now recommend a proper Inspection be conducted.

 

[Pete999]

I knew I needed a new CU because the old one has MCBs and not RCDs. Should I have done that before the EICR?

For better or worse, this saga has thrown up the IR/earth leak problem that I didn't know about before.

Disagree with your first paragraph.

 

[westward10]

Go back to the original contractor and say you are not happy with the Report. The statement about high leakage contains no valuable content for you to proceed and it is not clear whether insulation resistance tests were done.

 

[The Ghost]

Should I have done that before the EICR?

No as the contractor must test anyway before putting in a new CU as the possibility of pre-existing faults would trip the RCD and then you are at square on having to do tests to find out the fault. Anyway surely you were due a new EICR?

 

[spark 68]

If, and I mean if the IR tests were carried out correctly and showed no appreciable faults then where does the "earth leakage off the scale" come from ?
What I have seen done, is a spark/s with their shiny new earth leakage meter then proceed to clamp the MEC with it (instead of just the tails) especially on a PME system, and see several Amps showing! this however can be normal as PME systems notoriously can have plenty of Amps of circulating currents sloshing around on the incoming Earthing conductor, me and Tony had quite an in-depth discussion about this several years ago.
This is of course separate to other issues with the EICR in general, as others have said get a second opinion.

 

[PEG]

I do always wonder if there is a reason why the SMPS in these sockets isn't fed from the switch. It seems to be a simple solution to the problem and means you're not leaving the power supply permanently on.

Good point,but i have asked this question,and it's down to two reasons. One is,the switched outlet may be an appliance which zeros out,memory wise,when the power is cut,so inconvenient....

Two,is additional moving parts,and tooling requirements,for extra switch...therefore more cost= less profit.

....I wonder which one guided that production decision

 

[naylorpd]

Its not just USB sockets that can get fried.... Electronic dimmer switches, PIR sensors, LED lights... nothing with electronics like having the 500vDC pumped through it.

Just been to see my tenant, who reported that after the inspector left, they realised that their fridge-freezer wasn't working. The engineer came and reported that the circuit board was fried. So it seems that the IR tests were done without unplugging everything...

 

[Octopus]

Just been to see my tenant, who reported that after the inspector left, they realised that their fridge-freezer wasn't working. The engineer came and reported that the circuit board was fried. So it seems that the IR tests were done without unplugging everything...

I refer you back to post #2

 

[DPG]

You've been given very good advice several times now. Now is the time to act on it.

'off the scale' - I do love accurate information. Were all circuits the same 'off the scale' figure? Presumably they were each different.

 

[littlespark]

So there is nothing wrong with the installation, just the appliances?
The initial EICR was possibly spot on, and a recommendation of a CU change was just that... a recommendation.
The "off the scale" sparky should have checked for appliances, but as mentioned before, there are so many things that can affect the readings.

 

[SJD]

Just been to see my tenant, who reported that after the inspector left, they realised that their fridge-freezer wasn't working. The engineer came and reported that the circuit board was fried. So it seems that the IR tests were done without unplugging everything...

Perhaps as well as a refund for what appears an incompetent EICR, you ought to request the "inspector" pays for the fridge/freezer repairs that they damaged while testing.

 

[Risteard]

I'll ignore the C3 on cables not buried >50mm, it's nonsense.

It's not nonsense - it is required to code any lack of RCD protection where now required with a minimum C3 observation (which could be given a more serious observation depending on the details).

 

[Wilko]

Hi All - @naylorpd was mad kind enough to let me in for a look at the problem.
On arrival, clamping the tails did reveal a standing leakage of 70mA so there was likely to be a problem to solve. It turns out a fried USB outlet and a kitchen RFC fault were the major contributors. Fixing these two has reduced the installation leakage to 10mA with all appliances and boiler running etc.
The installation is 1980 (ish) TNCS PME , controlled by the original Wylex board with push button 5,15 and 30A mcb. There was a new kitchen fitted 10 years ago and one of the wall units has a mounting point in the middle of the cable safe zone. And sure enough probing the bracket through the back of the cupboard showed connection to the ring. Due to domestic practicalities we decided to deal with Kev's Revenge by disconnecting the damaged section for now. The RFC is now 2 radials with 15A OCPB, until a more convenient time to dismantle the kitchen, dig out the cable and repair it.

 

[naylorpd]

There was a new kitchen fitted 10 years ago

One year ago, not 10!
Main leakage was neutral to earth, not live to earth.
And lots of fun finding extension leads with surge protection stuffed behind beds.
Now all clear for new CU - thanks @Wilko

 

[Deleted account]

One year ago, not 10!
Main leakage was neutral to earth, not live to earth.
And lots of fun finding extension leads with surge protection stuffed behind beds.
Now all clear for new CU - thanks @Wilko

Neutral is a live conductor .