Can we also go back to red & black wires please...

[Dustydazzler]

Brexit: Government to launch study on economic benefits of reintroducing imperial units

<strong>Exclusive: </strong>Business minister mocked for ‘ludicrous’ attempt to quantify ‘Brexit benefit’

uk.yahoo.com

 

[timhoward]

I’d particularly love to go back to red yellow and blue please for 3 phase.
Whoever came up with brown black and grey has never worked in gloomy distribution cupboards.

 

[Julie.]

I vote to go back to the proper colours!

Red, white, blue for L1, L2, & L3
Green for neutral
Black for earth.

Yes, EARTH, none of this fancy "CPC" stuff!

Proper colours I say!

We can then have a proper notice to 514.14

"...This installation has colours to "s*** loads of versions of bs 7671..."

And we should go back to IEE, none of this IET lark...

And don't get me started on the size of "wagon wheels" today, when I were a kid, they were big enough to replace a three course meal...

 

[pc1966]

At first I thought that was a spoof article, or April 1st joke.

Then I realised how much of a joke we all are now

 

[pc1966]

There is an IET article "The history of colour identification of conductors" (google to find it, links borked on this forum) covering the UK history of colours.

It also has a note by someone involved in the decision for brown/black/grey explaining how it was a combination of the Uk being late to the party and then trying to wrangle a least-worst compromise with others in the EU (and wider) where various colours were in use a CPC so effectively forbidden for phase use and a high risk to life if standards attempted to change that.

 

[telectrix]

At first I thought that was a spoof article, or April 1st joke.

Then I realised how much of a joke we all are now

you think that's bad. try googling "woke".

 

[telectrix]

Red/Yellow/Blue.
Feet and Inches.
Pounds and Ounces/ Stones, Cwts.
Rods, perches, chains, Fathoms. 4 rods = 1 chain.
1 Acre is 4840 sq/yards. the area 1 man with horse and plough could turn over in a summer's day provided that the pub was closed.
Gas bills worded as xp /cu.m so we can gauge the cost. maybe converting the meters to cu.feet. is a step too far.

 

[Julie.]

Red/Yellow/Blue.
Feet and Inches.
Pounds and Ounces/ Stones, Cwts.
Rods, perches, chains, Fathoms. 4 rods = 1 chain.
1 Acre is 4840 sq/yards. the area 1 man with horse and plough could turn over in a summer's day provided that the pub was closed.
Gas bills worded as xp /cu.m so we can gauge the cost. maybe converting the meters to cu.feet. is a step too far.

Funnily enough at one point the phases were called
Phase ------------ cable colour
Red (R) ---------- red
Yellow (Y) ------ white
Blue (B) ---------- blue


I kid you not!

 

[telectrix]

strangely though. D.C. ELV is still red/black, so why is FP200 brown/blue. must be a gender (or some other snowflake fad) thing

 

[Dustydazzler]

We should adopt the American phases , black, black with a white line, red & white

 

[Aaron b]

Colours were still red and black when I was in college, it changed the year I left and part p was brought in.

Flex has been brown and blue for as long as I remember so why do we need the label on the distribution board?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Colours were still red and black when I was in college, it changed the year I left and part p was brought in.

Flex has been brown and blue for as long as I remember so why do we need the label on the distribution board?

Because flex isn't generally used as part of the 'fixed' wiring in homes

I was fortunate that I managed to get about 10 years using red and black cores before the powers that be forced us to change

 

[Aaron b]

Because flex isn't generally used as part of the 'fixed' wiring in homes

I was fortunate that I managed to get about 10 years using red and black cores before the powers that be forced us to change

Still odd though that they think a warning was required when we already knew of the two schemes.

Do you generally see the changes in regulations as an improvement in terms of working practices and safety?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Still odd though that they think a warning was required when we already knew of the two schemes.

Do you generally see the changes in regulations as an improvement in terms of working practices and safety?

It wasn't just changing red and black , we also changed 3c phase colours to brown black and grey so we had to de-neutralise the black and turn it blue.
I think the labelling was for unsuspecting plumbers , kitchen fitters and DIYers who had little knowledge of the phase colour changes...

As for improvements , NO not at all. Part Pee , cable changes and metal boards have made little to zero health and safety advances. Its all just been a money spinner for the powers that control us IMO

 

[Aaron b]

It wasn't just changing red and black , we also changed 3c phase colours to brown black and grey so we had to de-neutralise the black and turn it blue.
I think the labelling was for unsuspecting plumbers , kitchen fitters and DIYers who had little knowledge of the phase colour changes...

As for improvements , NO not at all. Part Pee , cable changes and metal boards have made little to zero health and safety advances. Its all just been a money spinner for the powers that control us IMO

Yeah I always have to consider the de-neutralising the black, I wasn't aware of the article for quite some time and thought it was logical to keep it as black.

It's a shame that the iet didn't address the issue that companies like mk produced crap that wasn't fit for ce marking and instead mislead people about consumer unit fires.

I also agree with you on part P not working.

There's been improvements though like the use wago's, rcbos and fire resistant fixings.

 

[Julie.]

Colours were still red and black when I was in college, it changed the year I left and part p was brought in.

Flex has been brown and blue for as long as I remember so why do we need the label on the distribution board?

To be fair, the colours were RYB Black & Green (or Green/yellow) when I started, (new colours for flex), but virtually all the older properties were in previous colours RWB Black, and either bare or Black for earth. No label on cu then!

Also, some were still RWB and Green (neutral), bare earth.

Again didn't need a label on the cu or dist board

 

[littlespark]

You had an earthwire?

We’re going to end up with cyan, magenta and yellow…. Oh… no. that’s taken

 

[Aaron b]

To be fair, the colours were RYB Black & Green (or Green/yellow) when I started, (new colours for flex), but virtually all the older properties were in previous colours RWB Black, and either bare or Black for earth. No label on cu then!

Also, some were still RWB and Green (neutral), bare earth.

Again didn't need a label on the cu or dist board

I wasn't aware of the green neutral, perhaps I just haven't paid enough when stripping things out. Was that at the same time as the lead sheathed flat cable? Or the vrf stuff?

 

[pirate]

Every cloud, as they say...
If we went back to red and black, all those drums of cable in my garage will suddenly be reprieved!
Along with the drum of twin red...yay!

 

[littlespark]

I wasn't aware of the green neutral, perhaps I just haven't paid enough when stripping things out. Was that at the same time as the lead sheathed flat cable? Or the vrf stuff?

The plain green sleeving is from very old installations… 60’s and 70’s. Not quite as old as lead.
Lighting circuits were lucky if they even had a cpc!

It was around the same time frame as the insulation that breaks down over time and becomes “green goo” which ends up dripping out of sockets.

 

[timhoward]

Funnily enough at one point the phases were called
Phase ------------ cable colour
Red (R) ---------- red
Yellow (Y) ------ white
Blue (B) ---------- blue


I kid you not!

Here you are Julie - here's some Red White and Blue for you, even triangular conductors!

 

[Aaron b]

The plain green sleeving is from very old installations… 60’s and 70’s. Not quite as old as lead.
Lighting circuits were lucky if they even had a cpc!

It was around the same time frame as the insulation that breaks down over time and becomes “green goo” which ends up dripping out of sockets.

I have a list of dates to help me date cables:

Red and black '50 - '04
No earthing - pre '66
Polyethylene - '50 - '60
PVC - post '60
Tinned copper - '60 - '70
Green earth - '66 - '77
Green goo '68 - 75
Imperial - pre '72
Aluminum - '72 - '76
2.5 t&e with 1mm earth - '69 - '81

Please enlighten me if I'm wrong with any or if there's anything else that could help.

 

[Julie.]

I wasn't aware of the green neutral, perhaps I just haven't paid enough when stripping things out. Was that at the same time as the lead sheathed flat cable? Or the vrf stuff?

Green neutral is really old, pre war really (it changed mid ww2), but when I started, it was only ~35 years old at that point.

It was common to find installations still in service after 40 - 45 years, I think less so today as the regs change so frequently now - 18th had ammendment 1 in less than 2 years , the 14th edition basically lasted ~24 years, the only change was the move to metric sizes!

 

[loz2754]

I vote to go back to the proper colours!

Red, white, blue for L1, L2, & L3
Green for neutral
Black for earth.

Yes, EARTH, none of this fancy "CPC" stuff!

Proper colours I say!

We can then have a proper notice to 514.14

"...This installation has colours to "s*** loads of versions of bs 7671..."

And we should go back to IEE, none of this IET lark...

And don't get me started on the size of "wagon wheels" today, when I were a kid, they were big enough to replace a three course meal...

Indeed I recall when wagon wheels were so big you had to actually wheel them home!

 

[telectrix]

Indeed I recall when wagon wheels were so big you had to actually wheel them home!

 

[Lucien Nunes]

here's some Red White and Blue for you

If you strip any of that out I need it for the museum!

 

[Julie.]

If you strip any of that out I need it for the museum!

It looks like it might be quadrant (4c) rather than 3c , but can't really see on my phone

 

[timhoward]

If you strip any of that out I need it for the museum!

Noted! (Yes 4 core)

 

[ipf]

Just imagine them singing 'I can see for kilometres and kilometres'.
It would be a disgrace.
That's why we still use miles...... not many know about 1760 yards, though.

 

[MJPD29]

Colours were still red and black when I was in college, it changed the year I left and part p was brought in.

Flex has been brown and blue for as long as I remember so why do we need the label on the distribution board?

It is there for idiots. Had a 4th year apprentice working with me recently and he was baffled by 3 phase. Had absolutley no idea why it was RYB and claimed never to have seen it before. Needless to say after seeing his work I'd be scared to think next year he'll probably be out working on his own for a company no doubt.

 

[telectrix]

Just imagine them singing 'I can see for kilometres and kilometres'.
It would be a disgrace.
That's why we still use miles...... not many know about 1760 yards, though.

also........

 

[nicebutdim]

also........

There's no way they'd walk 880,000 yards.

 

[Mike Johnson]

When I started work all dimensions on drawings where in imperial with the metric equivalent in Millimetre's in brackets underneath never used Centimetre's or come to think of it Meters.

 

[oracle]

It is there for idiots. Had a 4th year apprentice working with me recently and he was baffled by 3 phase. Had absolutley no idea why it was RYB and claimed never to have seen it before. Needless to say after seeing his work I'd be scared to think next year he'll probably be out working on his own for a company no doubt.

An apprentice? I've seen 5 day Part P jockeys trading the next week.

 

[pc1966]

When I started work all dimensions on drawings where in imperial with the metric equivalent in Millimetre's in brackets underneath never used Centimetre's or come to think of it Meters.

It is recommended to only use multiples of 1000 (so um, mm, m, km) and not cm as it becomes far more obvious in the "unit" is wrong if out by 1000 instead of 10.

I have had some stuff machined to 1/10 scale as a result of that sort of mix-up!

 

[telectrix]

When I started work all dimensions on drawings where in imperial with the metric equivalent in Millimetre's in brackets underneath never used Centimetre's or come to think of it Meters.

when i started meters were for putting shillings in. rememember my dad telling me to put my pocket money in the "safe" under the stairs

 

[MJPD29]

An apprentice? I've seen 5 day Part P jockeys trading the next week.

We don't have the 5 day wonders here as far as I am aware, but then I don't get involved in the domestic market. What amazed me was how confident and cocky he was even though after 4 years he didn't know cable colours, how to fit a occupancy sensor or what a contactor did. Incredible

 

[telectrix]

There's no way they'd walk 880,000 yards.

it's 1,760,000 yards. as they need to comeback to record the next album. maybe be they entitle it "letter from Ukraine".

 

[Julie.]

It is recommended to only use multiples of 1000 (so um, mm, m, km) and not cm as it becomes far more obvious in the "unit" is wrong if out by 1000 instead of 10.

I have had some stuff machined to 1/10 scale as a result of that sort of mix-up!

Yeah, the use of cm really annoys me, there are preferred multiples/units.

Most come from latin so...

Instead of 1/100th - (centeimus) -
centimetre

Perhaps we should start using 1/20th - (vicesimum) - vicesmetre, vicesohm, vicesvolt.

That piece of cable is only 10vm long, it has a voltage drop of just 1vV.

That's going to mess them up!

 

[telectrix]

Yeah, the use of cm really annoys me, there are preferred multiples/units.

Most come from latin so...

Instead of 1/100th - (centeimus) -
centimetre

Perhaps we should start using 1/20th - (vicesimum) - vicesmetre, vicesohm, vicesvolt.

That piece of cable is only 10vm long, it has a voltage drop of just 1vV.

let me get a 50cl 1 gill of scotch and i'll re-read that.

 

[pc1966]

Yeah, the use of cm really annoys me, there are preferred multiples/units.

The other oddity is the deciBel but we can quietly ignore that for now.

 

[Julie.]

let me get a 50cl 1 gill of scotch and i'll re-read that.

Now I understand why people want to move to imperial, a gill is 1/4 of a pint - so around 3x a current 35 - 50ml serving!

And perhaps, really telling tel, is 50cl is 1/2 litre - close on a pint.

So ...

 

[Julie.]

The other oddity is the deciBel but we can quietly ignore that for now.

Yeah odd, but as no one really understands it anyway one can't argue against it....

So when you say it's 10dB bigger that's 10x yes, so the signal is 10x larger?

No that would be 20dB

What, so the power for 10x is 20dB?

No that's 10dB

Err hang on I said that the signal is 10x larger and you said it was 20dB not 10dB

It is yes!

Arrrhhhh....

Now tell me about entropy and enthalpy...

 

[DPG]

Yeah odd, but as no one really understands it anyway one can't argue against it....

So when you say it's 10dB bigger that's 10x yes, so the signal is 10x larger?

No that would be 20dB

What, so the power for 10x is 20dB?

No that's 10dB

Err hang on I said that the signal is 10x larger and you said it was 20dB not 10dB

It is yes!

Arrrhhhh....

Now tell me about entropy and enthalpy...

The logarithmic dB is not that hard to understand once you grasp it. The thing that makes it slightly more confusing to people, I think, is the difference between voltage gain in dBs and power gain in dBs, and also the weighted dBA unit.

I think I'd need a refresher myself to be honest though!

 

[Mike Johnson]

The reasoning behind only using millimetres on construction drawings was it avoids confusion when a dirty finger imprints over the dimension and you loose the decimal point.

 

[pc1966]

The logarithmic dB is not that hard to understand once you grasp it. The thing that makes it slightly more confusing to people, I think, is the difference between voltage gain in dBs and power gain in dBs, and also the weighted dBA unit.

I think I'd need a refresher myself to be honest though!

Strictly speaking the dB is always a power ratio dB = 10 * log10(p1/p2). So the use for voltage gain as 20 * log10 (v1/v2) is avoiding the correct use where the related resistances are factored in. But everyone does it...

All of the others like dBA, dBuV, dBW, dBm, etc define p2 to be something common or useful. OK, not always useful...

And lets not speak of the Neper, shall we?

 

[pirate]

There's 10 types of people...those who understand binary notation, and those who don't...

happy to discuss infer vs imply,or you could just read the book...

 

[Mike Johnson]

Could we discuss the often used "off of"

 

[pirate]

...and "could of" or "should of" UGH!

 

[DPG]

...and "could of" or "should of" UGH!

That really winds me up that. It's almost become normal.