Can we also go back to red & black wires please...

[pc1966]

Yeah, the use of cm really annoys me, there are preferred multiples/units.

The other oddity is the deciBel but we can quietly ignore that for now.

 

[Julie.]

let me get a 50cl 1 gill of scotch and i'll re-read that.

Now I understand why people want to move to imperial, a gill is 1/4 of a pint - so around 3x a current 35 - 50ml serving!

And perhaps, really telling tel, is 50cl is 1/2 litre - close on a pint.

So ...

 

[Julie.]

The other oddity is the deciBel but we can quietly ignore that for now.

Yeah odd, but as no one really understands it anyway one can't argue against it....

So when you say it's 10dB bigger that's 10x yes, so the signal is 10x larger?

No that would be 20dB

What, so the power for 10x is 20dB?

No that's 10dB

Err hang on I said that the signal is 10x larger and you said it was 20dB not 10dB

It is yes!

Arrrhhhh....

Now tell me about entropy and enthalpy...

 

[DPG]

Yeah odd, but as no one really understands it anyway one can't argue against it....

So when you say it's 10dB bigger that's 10x yes, so the signal is 10x larger?

No that would be 20dB

What, so the power for 10x is 20dB?

No that's 10dB

Err hang on I said that the signal is 10x larger and you said it was 20dB not 10dB

It is yes!

Arrrhhhh....

Now tell me about entropy and enthalpy...

The logarithmic dB is not that hard to understand once you grasp it. The thing that makes it slightly more confusing to people, I think, is the difference between voltage gain in dBs and power gain in dBs, and also the weighted dBA unit.

I think I'd need a refresher myself to be honest though!

 

[Mike Johnson]

The reasoning behind only using millimetres on construction drawings was it avoids confusion when a dirty finger imprints over the dimension and you loose the decimal point.

 

[pc1966]

The logarithmic dB is not that hard to understand once you grasp it. The thing that makes it slightly more confusing to people, I think, is the difference between voltage gain in dBs and power gain in dBs, and also the weighted dBA unit.

I think I'd need a refresher myself to be honest though!

Strictly speaking the dB is always a power ratio dB = 10 * log10(p1/p2). So the use for voltage gain as 20 * log10 (v1/v2) is avoiding the correct use where the related resistances are factored in. But everyone does it...

All of the others like dBA, dBuV, dBW, dBm, etc define p2 to be something common or useful. OK, not always useful...

And lets not speak of the Neper, shall we?

 

[pirate]

There's 10 types of people...those who understand binary notation, and those who don't...

happy to discuss infer vs imply,or you could just read the book...

 

[Mike Johnson]

Could we discuss the often used "off of"

 

[pirate]

...and "could of" or "should of" UGH!

 

[DPG]

...and "could of" or "should of" UGH!

That really winds me up that. It's almost become normal.

 

[R-fur]

strangely though. D.C. ELV is still red/black, so why is FP200 brown/blue. must be a gender (or some other snowflake fad) thing

DC ELV is not red and black check table 7E of apendix 7 in the book.
Most of the work I do in substations is on DC systems and red and black is never used now. One of the main advantages of the 'new 20 year old' colours is that you can tell from the colours which pole is earthed if any.
Brown and Blue for 110V negative earthed and Blue and Grey for 48V positive earthed. Like wise Black and Black is used for 110V AC circuits which diferentiates them from 240 V circuits in trunkings etc.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Ah "past participles" there is a subject all by itself.

 

[pirate]

perhaps we need a new thread for this stuff, so we can expand on the use of litotes and synecdoche when describing electrical installations

 

[Mike Johnson]

What is the use of talking about this stuff until we are "Black and Blue" or is that "Red and Brown"

 

[Julie.]

DC ELV is not red and black check table 7E of apendix 7 in the book.
Most of the work I do in substations is on DC systems and red and black is never used now. One of the main advantages of the 'new 20 year old' colours is that you can tell from the colours which pole is earthed if any.
Brown and Blue for 110V negative earthed and Blue and Grey for 48V positive earthed. Like wise Black and Black is used for 110V AC circuits which diferentiates them from 240 V circuits in trunkings etc.

I really like the bebs standard numbering for switchgear etc.

You knew instantly what phase, what circuit - whether it was metering, protection, trip circuits, aux etc and roughly where you were in the circuit!
Still got the mustard pamphlet:

 

[Mike Johnson]

@R-fur I read that as "Red and Black Check"

 

[R-fur]

Mike sorry for the lake of comma, I cant even edit the post. I am sure we used to be able to.

 

[DPG]

Mike sorry for the lake of comma, I cant even edit the post. I am sure we used to be able to.

I think you get something like 20 minutes to be able to go back and edit it.

 

[R-fur]

Plus 1 for the BEBS system, Here is a condensed version for anyone that wants it.



Standard Numbering of small wiring

Condensed

Each wire shall have a letter to donate its function. A number identifying the individual wire will follow the letter. Every branch of any connection shall bear the same identification.



Numbering shall read from the terminals outwards on all wires.



Where part of a circuit is common to more than one function, the first in alphabetical order of the appropriate function letters in the table shall be used for the common part.



Circuits having functions not included in the table shall not have prefix letters.



DC positives shall be odd numbered

DC negatives shall be even numbered

Letter	Circuit function	Wire Numbers
A	Current transformers for primary protection, not over current	10-29 red phase 30-49 yellow phase 50-69 blue phase 70-89 residual & neutral 90 Earth 91-99 test windings
B	Current transformers for Busbar protection
C	Current transformers for over current protection
D	Current transformers for metering and voltage control
E	Reference voltage for instruments and metering and protection
F	Reference voltage for voltage control
G	Reference voltage for synchronising
H	AC and AC/DC supplies	1-69 sw gear and generator 70-99 transformers
J	DC supplies
K	Closing and tripping control circuits	Any number from 1 up
L	Alarms and indications
M	Aux control gear	1-19 Sw Gear 20-69 Generators 70-99 Transformers
N	Tap change control	Any number from 1 up
O	Non standard ferruling
P	DC tripping for bus bar protection
R	Interlock circuits
S	DC circuits for control of geny fields
T	Pilots
U	Spare cores
V	Auto switching circuits
W	Light current control
X	Alarms and indications General
Y	Telephones

 

[Mike Johnson]

@R-fur my comment was meant to be humorous not a criticism in any way.

 

[oracle]

I really like the bebs standard numbering for switchgear etc.

You knew instantly what phase, what circuit - whether it was metering, protection, trip circuits, aux etc and roughly where you were in the circuit!
Still got the mustard pamphlet:

View attachment 95440

What intrigues me most is the numbering system that you have in your Regs. 2,3,41,2,3, etc. It's doing my head in making sense of it!

 

[Julie.]

What intrigues me most is the numbering system that you have in your Regs. 2,3,41,2,3, etc. It's doing my head in making sense of it!

Which regs are those?

Are you talking about the numbers from BEBS ?

 

[nicebutdim]

Now I understand why people want to move to imperial, a gill is 1/4 of a pint - so around 3x a current 35 - 50ml serving!

And perhaps, really telling tel, is 50cl is 1/2 litre - close on a pint.

So ...

This helps me understand why a measure of spirits is 25ml in GB.

Can someone explain why a measure of spirits is 35ml in NI?

 

[littlespark]

In uk, it can be 25 or 35ml…. Depends on the license premises.

 

[Julie.]

This helps me understand why a measure of spirits is 25ml in GB.

Can someone explain why a measure of spirits is 35ml in NI?

It stems from history, traditionally England was 1/6 Gill, Scotland 1/5 Gill, Ireland was also 1/5 I think.

These were translated to metric resulting in 25ml (and 50ml for a double) in England, and 35ml for Ireland and Scotland. Often in Scotland a double is only 50ml.

Anywhere in the UK, the measure must be multiples of 25ml or 35ml, so in England they could serve in 35ml, just as you could serve 25ml in Scotland or Ireland.

 

[Julie.]

It stems from history, traditionally England was 1/6 Gill, Scotland 1/5 Gill, Ireland was also 1/5 I think.

These were translated to metric resulting in 25ml (and 50ml for a double) in England, and 35ml for Ireland and Scotland. Often in Scotland a double is only 50ml.

Anywhere in the UK, the measure must be multiples of 25ml or 35ml, so in England they could serve in 35ml, just as you could serve 25ml in Scotland or Ireland.

Should of added, I only know this stuff because my parents owned an off licence when I was a young child, and always held an interest, so when I moved to Scotland, almost the first question from my dad was "how about the larger shots..."

 

[nicebutdim]

Should of added, I only know this stuff because my parents owned an off licence when I was a young child, and always held an interest, so when I moved to Scotland, almost the first question from my dad was "how about the larger shots..."

I remember the first time being served a 25ml measure in England - made me question who the most miserable UK nation really was.

 

[littlespark]

I was a license holder when I worked on the caravan site , which was in Scotland, and I remember the sign saying “whisky, vodka, gin, rum sold in measures of 25ml or 35ml….. or multiples thereof” or wording to that effect.

Now it seems the signs are made up with 25, OR 35ml… One or the other.

 

[pc1966]

I remember the first time being served a 25ml measure in England - made me question who the most miserable UK nation really was.

Recently (as in 3 years ago?) buying two G&T in London and handing over £20 and then looking at the pittance of change i got back. Barman was "Ah mate, your not from here are you?"

 

[littlespark]

Recently (as in 3 years ago?) buying two G&T in London and handing over £20 and then looking at the pittance of change i got back. Barman was "Ah mate, your not from here are you?"

Scottish £20? Shall we start a rant about “legal tender”???

Did I read “Batman” there instead of barman?

 

[Zerax]

At first I thought that was a spoof article, or April 1st joke.

Why ???

Feet and inches are lovely measurements to use. I've been using a mix of feet/inches and metric for years.... each has it's place.

The bigger issue is that woke, snowflake millennial will need counselling to cope !!

Don't forget that in some industries, sailing/boatbuilding for example... it's all still mostly imperial sizes !

 

[pc1966]

Why ???

Because all changes in the last century have been to adopt metric standards for everything.

Yes, some standards and usage is backed-in to certain industries and products (e.g. tripod screw thread, etc) but it is simply insane to start using standards again that are not world-wide consistent (e.g. UK & USA definitions for same name) or require learning bizarre ratios of units that date back centuries.

When I saw the UK proposing this it actually made me think of how the Islamic world was once the leader in forward thinking, mathematics and science (as we would describe it today) but as they slipped behind the Renaissance in Europe, etc, they became increasingly backward looking and theocratic, culminating in the worst of the middle east, etc, today where the answer is alwys about going back to the old ways, more prayer, less tolerance of anything new or western, etc.

 

[pc1966]

Just to add, the UK actually started metrication - just look at how the BA screw sizes were defined!

 

[Zerax]

Yes, some standards and usage is backed-in to certain industries and products

Yes... exactly... like sheets of plywood... at present it is illegal to sell a sheet that is exactly 8' x 4' as 8' x 4', it must be sold as 2440 x 1220 mm... absolutely and utterly bonkers !!! When we originally joined the EU we managed to agree a few exceptions, like pints of milk, pints of beer, miles for road markings etc... but now that we're free from all that nonsense, we should be able to use the most appropriate sizing.

Another one that springs to mind is circular saw blade bores... usually they are exactly ⅝"... but are sold as 15.875 mm... which one of those is easiest to use ???

 

[pc1966]

Yes... exactly... like sheets of plywood... at present it is illegal to sell a sheet that is exactly 8' x 4' as 8' x 4', it must be sold as 2440 x 1220 mm... absolutely and utterly bonkers !!!

No it is not!

You must provide any measurement for sale in metric.

You can make them anything you want (e.g. 2440mm) and you can also provide the values in anything else like UK imperial, Egyptian cubit, punnet of strawberries, etc, if you want.

Metrication in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[littlespark]

We call it a “pint of milk” but it’s 568ml marked on the label.
Most are sold as 500ml, 1L or 2l now

We should be clever enough to deal with both systems. One is not better than the other.

 

[Zerax]

No it is not!

You must provide any measurement for sale in metric.

You can make them anything you want (e.g. 2440mm) and you can also provide the values in anything else like UK imperial, Egyptian cubit, punnet of strawberries, etc, if you want.

Metrication in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't have the patience to wade through all that... can you pull out the relevant reference please... I read the bit about consumers can ask for what they want, but not that sellers can advertise and sell in whatever units they want.

 

[Mike Johnson]

At least 2440 x 1220 allowed old duffers to visualise the size as 8 x 4.

 

[pc1966]

I don't have the patience to wade through all that... can you pull out the relevant reference please... I read the bit about consumers can ask for what they want, but not that sellers can advertise and sell in whatever units they want.

The legally binding value must be metric, they are the official units.

The "supplementary indicator" can be anything that helps the consumer (but obviously has to match so you are not cheating!).

So you can sell a 1lb jar of jam but it must clearly indicate 454 g as well.

 

[Zerax]

The legally binding value must be metric, they are the official units.

The "supplementary indicator" can be anything that helps the consumer (but obviously has to match so you are not cheating!).

So you can sell a 1lb jar of jam but it must clearly indicate 454 g as well.

Yeah... that was my point.. the legally binding value is in metric. So I hope that we can move away from that and have legally binding units in imperial too ! (so that sheet materials can be sold as whatever they actually are !)

I just checked... and I can't find anything in my food cupboards that shows anything other than metric sizes... so it looks likely that the manufacturers have rolled over and gone all metric to simplify product ranges across borders.