EPC F...can get to D with a 1.5 kWp south-facing PV system?

[solarcat]

Hi All, before we ask the Client to spend any money on a new EPC assessment..do you reckon there is any chance they can get to D if they fit a 1.5 kWp system (nice south-facing roof)?

 

[provr6]

I don't know the answer I'm afraid, but it would be interesting to know how many points you can get for a PV installation per KW.

I would doubt that they could get from F to D. The biggest points are gained by having gas central heating as I understand it. Good insulation, double glazing etc all help but are not worth as many points.

 

[babba]

Its a joke gas central heating giving the biggest points. The instability of this whole sham is not real, as for the question I would not think pv would bring you a D from pv alone, why dont you tweet Greg the twit, come to think of it he wont know, he cant even do simple maths...we need a copy of EPC for dummys..

 

[Eco Deal]

4 kw solar pv adds only a few points.

What about adding energy bulbs ?? thats easy

 

[solarcat]

Hi All,

Thanks for the suggestions so far
already have energy saving bulbs, modern storage heaters and double glazing, and that's about all that can be done. It is not suitable for cavity wall insulation, nor roof insulation. It also cannot have gas connected ( heating & cooking is all electrical)
it really is a joke that gas adds a lot of points to the EPC rating, then it's more about spending less for heating than actually about saving energy...a 1.5kW PV system would supply about 80% of this house's day energy needs

 

[babba]

Just get it in before april..

 

[Eco Deal]

YES the option above may be better idea

 

[SolarCity]

YES the option above may be better idea

Which is a bit depressing, I'm sure most will agree.

 

[babba]

Try acid with prozac working for me at the mo.... I can see a lot of people sitting on their hands very soon...DEPRESSING is an understatement..

 

[solarcat]

Unfortunately can't do before April as it's waiting for planning...

 

[Earthstore]

Why do you need planning?

 

[solarcat]

Flat roof, conservation area

 

[Earthstore]

The rules have changed for conservation areas, covered this recently with the help of Ted and Bruce, so I had to point out to my local planners that you no longer need planning for PV because of the highway rule.

However you still need planning because it is a flat roof so will be higher than 200mm,
You could always mount it flat, then go for planning after, you could just beat the EPC deadline, although there is a risk ...
Just a thought

 

[babba]

Earthstore can you post new or not so new regs regarding conservation areas..?????

 

[Earthstore]

Earthstore can you post new or not so new regs regarding conservation areas..?????

I have just tried to find the link that Ted posted, but I can not find it, sorry.
If Ted reads this maybe he would be kind enough to repost it.

 

[babba]

Thanks for trying...

 

[solarcat]

Thank you all,

yes if there is any chance of finding that link it would be great, I'll start looking for it online

 

[babba]

What Is Retrospective Planning Consent? How Do I Apply?

try this link on retrospective planning if you install you can apply after install worth a look...

 

[methley]

It does depend on the property's permitted development rights also. Mine had them removed so still needed planning.

 

[BruceB]

Methley, It would be interesting to know which permitted development rights were removed, because PV permitted development rights come under 'Part 40' of the relevant Act. For a great many people when permitted development rights were removed in earlier planning permissions, Part 40 did not exist, therefore it was not listed in the rights removed, therefore when it was introduced everyone benefitted from it because it had never been removed.

Solarcat, You want SI 2011/2056

The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Amendment) (England) Order 2011

 

[babba]

Anyone tell me or give some guide lines on curtilage of a listed building...

 

[TedM]

Generally the garden. If a large house then paddocks or fields may be outside the curtilage.

 

[TedM]

This article http://www.ihbc.org.uk/context_archive/97/legal/CTX97[6].html gives extensive coverage to it.

 

[danesol]

Hi All, before we ask the Client to spend any money on a new EPC assessment..do you reckon there is any chance they can get to D if they fit a 1.5 kWp system (nice south-facing roof)?

Surely if you want to get a better tarrif after APRIL, you need to improve the house itself which leads to get the better tarriff for the PV Install, not the other way.........

or... fit a Solar water heating system first, along with replacement LED bulbs everywhere, internal wallboard insulation if cavity insul' not possible, better white goods ???

 

[babba]

Sounds expensive wait for the green deal whatever year that comes going on the HITS....

 

[methley]

Methley, It would be interesting to know which permitted development rights were removed, because PV permitted development rights come under 'Part 40' of the relevant Act.

My planning application was in Sept last year which predates the document in your link. At the time my local planning dept advised that permitted dev rights for Solar PV had been removed when the property was built. However another installation of mine in the same village, also within a conservation area, still had those rights and I was advised that planning was not required.

 

[TedM]

The legislation on allowing permitted development on roofs in conservation areas was actually changed from 1st October 2008 in England. The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Amendment) (No. 2) (England) Order 2008 but if you have raised panels on a flat roof you may still have needed planning permission.

 

[methley]

Hmm, I'm a bit confused now. That document seems to say that development is NOT permitted if the installation is solar PV?

Class C​

Permitted development

C. Any other alteration to the roof of a dwellinghouse.

Development not permitted

C.1. Development is not permitted by Class C if—

(a)​

...

(ii) the installation, alteration or replacement of solar photovoltaics or solar thermal equipment.

 

[TedM]

It's not permitted under Part 1 Class C (which only covers general roof changes) but is permitted under Part 40 (which covers domestic microgeneration).

It's like having a law that says you cannot speed - but having another law that says it is OK as long as you have a blue flashing light.

If solar panels were allowed under Part 1 C then none of the special conditions that only apply under Part 40 (height, visual amenity etc) would be enforceable.

 

[pwboston]

Surely if you want to get a better tarrif after APRIL, you need to improve the house itself which leads to get the better tarriff for the PV Install, not the other way.........

I thought this was the case.

You had to have the D rating Before the solar pv is allowed at the higher 21p tariff, NOT taking into account the solar PV for the rating, can you confirm this is correct?

 

[TedM]

No, that is not the case. The PV can contribute to the 'D' rating if it is needed. But, in this case, the EPC must be carried out after the PV has been installed.

 

[solarcat]

I thought this was the case.

You had to have the D rating Before the solar pv is allowed at the higher 21p tariff, NOT taking into account the solar PV for the rating, can you confirm this is correct?

PWboston, PV can be used to bring the EPC rating to level D, as long as you install the system and get a new EPC assessment done before you send the FIT application. The new EPC certificate will need to be attached to the application and cannot be sent afterwards. For more details, please refer to question 10:
Frequently asked questions - Department of Energy and Climate Change

 

[pwboston]

Thanks for that, althoufh it still makes it awkward i suppose as you have to make sure the assessor takes into account that if it isnt a D rating that the array will make it one afterwards. But still it corrects my assumption.

 

[The Solar King]

You need to set up a suitable arrangement with your DEA. If a building does not make D, do not issue the certificate until work to meet it has been completed.


On the main point, there is not a cat in hells chance of getting from F to D on the strength of PV. You need 55 points for D. PV will add 3. If you have electic storage heating and no cavity wall you will struggle.

If you are off grid for gas, you may be better looking at other technologies such as heat pumps. If you are on grid, going for a new boiler and heating system is a far more cost effective solution.

 

[Gavin A]

how do you get to PV adding 3 points?

my info from our EPC assessor is that it can add significantly more than that, though obviously it depends on the size of system etc. Or did you mean that a 1.5kWp installation would add 3 points?

eta - but I agree that PV alone won't take it from F to D, and would think this would be a major struggle to get up to a D.

 

[Earthstore]

My DEA also informed me that PV adds more than 3 points, so I guess that we have yet another grey area....

 

[The Solar King]

This is an average level. There is some variation. However, compared with other measures the contribution of PV to improving an energy performance level is marginal. Unless a building is close to a qualification level, it would be unwise to rely on PV doing the job.

It comes back to the point made about a two stage assessment. The DEA may also be able to suggest a cost effective measure to help raise the performance of a building.

From my own experience in building renovation and development and a wider interest in energy efficiency, I thankfully have enough knowledge to do a rough assessment of a building. If a building is obviosly way off I can advise the owner they need to look at other measures before PV. Several people have alluded to the basics. A close working relationship with your DEA will soon educate you if this is not something you have had involvement with.

A wider concern is anecdotal evidence already of the disreputable end of the market looking at ways of circumvention and coercing less scrupulous DEAs. One I spoke to had already been made a somewhat dubious offer. Luckily, he ran a mile. As work is thin on the ground for DEAs, I am sure some will be tempted.

 

[The Solar King]

How many points will PV add?
There is no easy answer to this question as the point gain will vary and will depend on the property and the EPC rating before the installation. The only way to tell for sure is to feed the data into the rdSAP software that DEAs use.

 

[Gavin A]

yep.

we're about to start getting an initial EPC done for each quote, followed by a second one after the installation and any other upgrade work.

Not 100% certain if we're going to get a full registered EPC at the quote stage, or just a draft that's not registered until after the installation is complete, with the installation and any other work done being added to the original draft assessment prior to it being registered fully on the system.

I was going to definitely get it done fully at both stages, but have realised that these things then go on a central database, and some customers might well be a bit funny about having this done at the quote stage, plus it could cause some difficulties if everyone was registering these things at the quote stage and coming up with slightly different results etc It could end up with a house having 5-6 EPC's all slightly different, which would really start making a mockery of the whole system.... erm actually, on second thoughts...

 

[The Solar King]

As the EPC will be part of the decision making process for a prospective customer, we will have a system whereby the customer pays for the EPC. The EPC will only be undertaken if there is intent to go with us for an installation. If as a result of the EPC they formally signup, we will reimburse the cost of the EPC. If the building meets D, the EPC will be immediately registered. If they do not sign up, the EPC will also be registered at that point. If further work is required, or the PV will get it to D, the EPC will be registered on completion.

In this way we will not be unnecessarily landed with the cost of EPCs

 

[The Solar King]

Just redoing my T&Cs. Make sure all responsibility for the EPC and ensuring achievement of level D is that of the customer in exactly the same way as planning or building control is.