Been told my install is dangerous! Is it? (with pic)

[cable_guy]

Hi all,

I'm new here, so hi!

I know nothing about electrics, but am thinking of selling my house and I'm hoping someone can help me please.

A couple of years ago I had my electric shower fixed, and in doing so the electrician saw my main install and said that he shouldn't really touch it as it's too old. Don't think he was trying to con me as the electric shower was an insurance job so he knew he wasn't going to get any money out of me etc......

Does this look like I should get it upgraded please?

If so, any idea how much it'd cost me to do?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[nickblake]

Well the bad news is yes it does need upgrading , there is a wooden frame of the back of this type of CDU (fuse box) these can be a fire hazard if a fualt developes within the board , looking at it it has and old style RCD these were fitted normally to a TT system but were discontinued in a change to the regs in the mid 80's ,to main things that will be missing is RCD protection and Bonding to water and ony other services get a spark to give you a price for upgrading especially as your going to sell , i wouldnt say its dangerouse just out dated .according to the lable on the cut out its a TNCS system (PME) so earth should be ok

 

[cable_guy]

Well the bad news is yes it does need upgrading , there is a wooden frame of the back of this type of CDU (fuse box) these can be a fire hazard if a fualt developes within the board , looking at it it has and old style RCD these were fitted normally to a TT system but were discontinued in a change to the regs in the mid 80's ,to main things that will be missing is RCD protection and Bonding to water and ony other services get a spark to give you a price for upgrading especially as your going to sell , i wouldnt say its dangerouse just out dated .according to the lable on the cut out its a TNCS system (PME) so earth should be ok

Thanks Nick, I can now at least sound like I know a bit of what I'm talking about when I ask for quotes!

Is there anywhere on this forum I can ask what I am likely to be charged for this work so I know whether or not the quote seems reasonable please?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

The 'old style RCD' is a voltage operated earth leakage circuit breaker....no longer an acceptable means of earth fault protection...(they are now so old and unreliable it may not even work if you get a fault)....no alterations or additions could be carried out to the installation with this in place.

 

[Des 56]

The system you have is of a voltage operated trip with a wylex fuse board and at a guess a TT (earth ROD)

There are people around who will look at fuse board and proclaim " thats not permitted" that is usually a load of tosh

However,the voltage operated trip is a long overdue obsolete type and is highly recomended that it is replaced with an rcd

An rcd by its nature,is much more sensitive to installation faults than your elcb
It would not be wise to just change that item without first determining whether there were installation faults that could upset this Rcd ( You coulkd just go for it,but that is not a wise decision)

When the shower was installed,part of that work shpuld have involved upgrading of our earthing and bonding if required,that would need checking also
Because he did not install an rcd,I would be cautious about relying on him having checked these items

In a nutshell,installations such as yours can only be guessed at without a hands on visit by a spark
You may have very little that needs attention,on the other hand,you may have such things as lighting circuits with no earth in the cable,
Whatever condition your electriucs are in,it does not require that you make it comply
Sold as seen is the by word there

Most estate agemts and the like,think that if there is a shiny new consumer unit,the electrics are fine,that is utter total nonesense,but they believe it
If you want to impress the agent,install a new consumer unit and make it magically become a new install
If you want do nothing
If you want,go for safety then install an rcd and get earthing amd bonding seen to

 

[NEsparky]

Just one point i would add to nickblake's 100% correct answer is regarding the earth what he ment to say was as it is a TNCS system the Incoming earth should be adequate.

But I am concerened that I can not see any sign of an earth cable any where in the photo near the cut out, this is possible but unlikley if done correctly.

So i would recommend you get a trust worthy electrician to check it sooner rather than later.

Jim

 

[devon1]

cable_guy, just start a new threat something like, 'price required for CU change' and i'm sure you'll get some quotes.

old RCD
Obsolete Chilton earth leakage circuit breaker


How does an VOELCB work?

VOELCBs work by connecting what is usually called the ‘earth wire’ (officially ‘the circuit protective connector’) of the final circuits to the main earth terminal via an electrical coil within the device. If enough current leaks from the ‘live wire’ (officially ‘phase’) to earth, it will produce a sufficiently high voltage across the coil to trip the isolator mechanism.

This automatic operation relies on three significant assumptions:
• That any leakage current passes to a circuit earth wire (or conduit, metal cable sheath, trunking, etc.) and not to earth via any other electrical conductor, such as a person
• That the earth wire or ‘circuit protective connector’ is continuous up to, and through, the VOELCB
• That the main system connection to earth at the consumer’s service board (and earthing rod, if relevant) is adequate and intact
If any of these is not the case - or even worse, if both are wrong - then the system can be lethal. VOELCBs are therefore no longer approved by the IEE Wiring Regulations .

What are the approved alternatives?

For earth leakage protection, the Regulations now recommend the use of a residual current device (RCD), which detects earth leakage by comparing live and neutral currents and disconnecting the circuit if they are different. Any difference implies some fault connecting live or ‘phase’ to earth.

A VOELCB can be recognised as follows:
• It has a On/Off toggle switch and a Push to Test button (like an RCD)
• It has two earth wire connections (an RCD has none)

Any surviving VOELCB (voltage-operated device) should be replaced with an RCD (residual current device) under the guidance of a qualified electrician. Otherwise people may be at risk, and it is highly likely that the insurance cover of your job will no longer be effective.

 

[alarm man]

Thanks Nick, I can now at least sound like I know a bit of what I'm talking about when I ask for quotes!

Is there anywhere on this forum I can ask what I am likely to be charged for this work so I know whether or not the quote seems reasonable please?

post where your from and get some quotes off the lads on here,2 birds one stone

 

[cable_guy]

wow, thanks for the indepth responses, I'm very very grateful. I think I want to get it upgraded even if it's just for my own piece of mind. I've not spent much on my house and although I'm not bothered by a "shiny fuse box" etc, I'd prefer to know that i'm safe.

The sparky that fixed the electric shower mentioned "around £200" to upgrade it, if I was to ask him formally for a quote though he said he'd have to have a proper look. I'm tempted to put a tender out on RatedPeople.com you see to get a price for that and some other bits and bobs I want doing (I have a plug socket which gives me an electric shock whenever I use it, I would like an electic heater/light above my bath (!) removed and replacing with recessed celiing spotlights, and ceiling spotlights to replace my normal light in my bedroom)

If it's not the right forum for me to ask for your opinion on prices here, I'm sorry and I'll take it off straight away.

 

[cable_guy]

post where your from and get some quotes off the lads on here,2 birds one stone

Stoke on Trent.

thanks.

 

[nickblake]

Hi NE sparkey the main earth looks like its comming from the left of the cut out appears to be black ,over the years i have found this to be quite common with the install of that age incorrect i know but

 

[eskimo39]

Hi Cable-Guy there was a discussion recently about what people charge for a CU change & Earthing upgrade. The prices ranged between £400-£600 if I remember correctly. However keep in mind that it a 'best case' quote. A good electrician will do a few basic tests before commencing work and will be able to advise on if it will be a straight forward change or if circuits need upgrading etc.

Just looking at the pictures it looks like no earthing or bonding present. Can you see a green & yellow cable anywhere around your consumer unit?? Also do you live in a built up area or are you in a quite rural area??

I am not sure if it could be worth contacting your energy supplier in regards to upgrading your main incoming feed & earthing arrangement. Has anyone on here any experience of that??

 

[NEsparky]

Possible nick but i would suggest if you look realy hard i think that its a twin and you can just see it pass the top corner of the cut out fixing board and continue down the celing.

But hey im sure it wouldnt be the fist time either us have traced a cable wron.

Jim

 

[nickblake]

thats true jim , it could even be a TT as des had mentioned but looks like a PME lable of the cutout hency my responce , best bet on this is to get loads of quotes to see what the best price is , one thing that may be of concern is : i hate to mention ,VIR , black rubber cable .

 

[cable_guy]

thats true jim , it could even be a TT as des had mentioned but looks like a PME lable of the cutout hency my responce , best bet on this is to get loads of quotes to see what the best price is , one thing that may be of concern is : i hate to mention ,VIR , black rubber cable .

whats bad about that? is it expensive to replace?

 

[cable_guy]

Possible nick but i would suggest if you look realy hard i think that its a twin and you can just see it pass the top corner of the cut out fixing board and continue down the celing.

But hey im sure it wouldnt be the fist time either us have traced a cable wron.

Jim

is this picture any better? sorry about the shoddy pic its quite hard to take photos in there!

eskimo39 - There aren't any green or yellow cables I can see, and I live in the middle of a city. £400-600 best case bang goes my recessed spot lights I think then!!!

 

[nickblake]

Well there is one thing i will say ,call your electrical supplier and get them to check see if the earth has been installed its labled as a PME (TNCS) so it should be ,there is no visable earth comming from the cutout , but seeing the closer picture and with the old obsolete RCD im now sure its a TT system ,having said that the main cable looks like its relativly new ,concientric type

 

[nickblake]

Black rubber if your house has it ,unfortunatly it will need a rewire , black rubber disintegrates rapidy , it tends to get brittle and basically crumbles away , may be perfectly alright , but in the many cases ive seen it may not

 

[Des 56]

Its good luck with that photo
The pme earth is available,which is a very good start

4.5 and 6 hundred for a consumer unit change

I am shocked as well.you wouldn't get those sort of prices in my 3rd world area
250 maximum,city slicker cprices "say another ton"

My I sometimes wish I lived in a city
In answer to the cable type

They are now trying to frighten your bank manager

If it is Vir,then the installation will become an expensive pain
I suspect the shower spark would have told you if that were the case
An onsite assessment by a local spark may be your best way forward

I dont go much for your method of looking for a spark
Perhaps go on the competent person website and search for an electrician who is registered for Periodic inspection by the schemes

 

[NEsparky]

Im affraid the electric board are no better than the rest of us if they fitted it on a friday and its all they had in the van it is more than possible you have a TT and a TNCS cut out.

Your visible cables look painted at top of CCU (fuse box) so you may not be able to see them.

Im affraid they are all right though you need a sparks to have a look at it try and find one recommended by a friend.

Good luck

Jim

 

[cable_guy]

I dont go much for your method of looking for a spark
Perhaps go on the competent person website and search for an electrician who is registered for Periodic inspection by the schemes

Hi Des, thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what you mean, is there some sort of registered professional electrician website I've not seen?

I have submitted my tender to ratedpeople.com to get sparkies out to have a closer look at it to see what they will charge, do you think thats a good idea?

 

[nickblake]

Hi cable guy if you go on the elecsa nic napit websites you can search for a regestered spark have alook may be helpful

 

[cable_guy]

Hi cable guy if you go on the elecsa nic napit websites you can search for a regestered spark have alook may be helpful

cheers, a lad from a firm in crewe has got back in touch with me already about coming to have a look on Wednesday, but searching for his company's name on NICEIC doesn't say that he's on there!! Should I ask to see any of his papers etc if I want him to do the work?

 

[BluSparx]

cheers, a lad from a firm in crewe has got back in touch with me already about coming to have a look on Wednesday, but searching for his company's name on NICEIC doesn't say that he's on there!! Should I ask to see any of his papers etc if I want him to do the work?

He may be registered with another body i.e. Elecsa or Napit these are similar to NICEIC only the NICEIC are more known however as long as he is registered for one of these schemes for any work carried out if you agree for him to put right anything that needs doing otherwise you will have to pay for Local Authority Building Control to check the work complies with Part P regulations.

Check out my website for more info on Part P or visit Welcome to ELECSA or Part P | Electricians | Building Regulations - NAPIT UK

 

[Des 56]

cheers, a lad from a firm in crewe has got back in touch with me already about coming to have a look on Wednesday, but searching for his company's name on NICEIC doesn't say that he's on there!! Should I ask to see any of his papers etc if I want him to do the work?

The niceic is just one of the schemes
Look at the communities and local government website for competent persons
State where you live and a list of people from the 3 main schemes will be available
Click on the individuals name and check thier scope with the scheme providor as to whether they are covered for test and inspection(pir)

There are various levels of competence
Full scope(they can install and self certify all domestic installations
Full scope with Pir approval (they can do a pir under the banner of the scheme)
Defined scope These are other trades who can do work associated with their tade example Plummers kitchen fitters etc
The defined scope members are prone to taking on work they are not permitted because "they have their part p" or some other useless jargon that theys spout

The main schemes are niceic,napit,elecsa(eca)

If you employ someone who is not registered then by law you have to inform bulding control and follow their procedure as regards notifiable work under part p of the building regs and pay a large fee
If they are not listed, then they are not registered,so chose carefully

 

[nickblake]

i know this may sound a daft question but what do your light switches / sockets look like

 

[cable_guy]

i know this may sound a daft question but what do your light switches / sockets look like

no not like that, white plastic ones, what I'd call normal switches/sockets!!

Thanks for the info, are they called professional bodies, or just called "electrical schemes"

 

[ezzzekiel]

agree totally with Des,

just because its old dont mean its a problem a full inspection would need to be carried out, the voelcb are no longer approved

 

[icecoolwas]

Hi all,

I'm new here, so hi!

I know nothing about electrics, but am thinking of selling my house and I'm hoping someone can help me please.

A couple of years ago I had my electric shower fixed, and in doing so the electrician saw my main install and said that he shouldn't really touch it as it's too old. Don't think he was trying to con me as the electric shower was an insurance job so he knew he wasn't going to get any money out of me etc......

Does this look like I should get it upgraded please?

If so, any idea how much it'd cost me to do?

Many thanks in advance.

No idea, I have the exact same electrical layout in my garage though

 

[JUD]

cheers, a lad from a firm in crewe has got back in touch with me already about coming to have a look on Wednesday, but searching for his company's name on NICEIC doesn't say that he's on there!! Should I ask to see any of his papers etc if I want him to do the work?

Try searching on HERE.

This covers all the schemes

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Just had my meter renewed at home and watched the guy doing it. The tails from the fuse to the meter head were not coloured as expected (Blue core = live ). rather than change them over, he just applied labels to the outside. So they aint exactly bothered, he did atleast check tighten all of the clamp screws in the fuse holder.

 

[nickblake]

Im in talks with the ESC regarding this at the moment ,did you know : electricians are not alowed to cut the seals , yes we know that ,but the meter tails from the meter to the CDU are not the responcability of the suppliers ,so we have to be responcable , there is a new meter replacemnet program just starting so i have said they should install a switch so we can change tails regardless and correctly

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Im in talks with the ESC regarding this at the moment ,did you know : electricians are not alowed to cut the seals , yes we know that ,but the meter tails from the meter to the CDU are not the responcability of the suppliers ,so we have to be responcable , there is a new meter replacemnet program just starting so i have said they should install a switch so we can change tails regardless and correctly

I asked the question if he could fit on on my installation, he just said call up and pay between £50 and £70 and you can have it!!!

 

[nickblake]

dam typical well the ESC have got a picture of mine they have asked if they can use so im hoping they will see our point of view but i doubt it

 

[cable_guy]

Hi all,

Just wanted to share with you the quote I've had for upgrading my CU, connecting the earth presented in the P.M.E to my system, bonding to the gas and water supplies, I've been told £355 which is my first quote yet. What do you think?

he wants a further £190 for the spot lights in my bathroom and main bedroom (9 spot lights in total), is this reasonable? It seems very cheap from what I've had on this thread any my prices thread on this board? He is a member of one of the professional bodies ( I looked him up on the web and he is registered on their official site )

cheers.

 

[antony73993]

Doesn't look so good to me I would say an upgrade was definitely required. I cant see any earthing, which is a must when undertaking any installation work, when installing a new circuit we have to ensure that the installation is safe before we put our name to it. A new fuseboard should cost £275-£350 and bonding £100-£150, you may also need other work. The best thing I could suggest would be to have a periodic inspection carried out which should cost between £90-£150. I hope that helps good luck

 

[brucelee]

dam typical well the ESC have got a picture of mine they have asked if they can use so im hoping they will see our point of view but i doubt it

well done for trying mate would make it a lot easier for us eh mate and safer for all then we wouldnt have to touch it they should also be responsible for tails from cut out to meter and meter to isolator then we can fit ours to that no probs simples instead of hassle now
i have to contact them to fit one at my bruvs house and also upgrade the tails as they unsheathed before i can change CCU

 

[cable_guy]

Doesn't look so good to me I would say an upgrade was definitely required. I cant see any earthing, which is a must when undertaking any installation work, when installing a new circuit we have to ensure that the installation is safe before we put our name to it. A new fuseboard should cost £275-£350 and bonding £100-£150, you may also need other work. The best thing I could suggest would be to have a periodic inspection carried out which should cost between £90-£150. I hope that helps good luck

thanks for your reply, he's come out tonight and quoted to upgrade the whole lot and earth it, bond it for £355, do you think that sounds right please?

 

[antony73993]

thanks for your reply, he's come out tonight and quoted to upgrade the whole lot and earth it, bond it for £355, do you think that sounds right please?

If he's part p registered I'd say that was a very good price.

 

[brucelee]

sounds fair mate

 

[cable_guy]

If he's part p registered I'd say that was a very good price.

part p?

He's in NAPIT, is that what it means?

 

[brucelee]

part p?

He's in NAPIT, is that what it means?

yes mate he is classed as competent person and is approved

 

[cable_guy]

yes mate he is classed as competent person and is approved

nice one!!! we're cooking on gas here! Getting another quote tomorrow so we'll see what he says too.

I don't really like spending cash on something the buyer probably won't even notice but at least it means I can get spotlights upstairs which he couldn't do before it was all upgraded downstairs.

 

[brucelee]

yeah mate your cooking now
plus you will know that you will be completly safe as this installation so old there could be faults that are left undetected and you will be able to sleep easier it will also help when selling