exyending ring main

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wobblymike

i am about to build a partition wall in my daughters house to split one big bedroom into 2 for my grandchildren. Iam going to install 2 double sockets on each side of the new wall. There is one double socket in the bedroom at present and my intent is to split the ring under this socket by cutting one of the cables and inserting the new cable run via 2 30a junction boxes. When i polled up the floorboard yesterday I was surprised to see only 1 set of connections to the socket via a single cable. I confirmed this by opening the face plate and confirming there was only 1 set of connections. This indicates that the socket is a spur which is very surprising as it is the only socket in the room. Obviously I cannot run the new cable run from a spur. Am i missing something here?,
 
you could fit a FCU before the existing socket then spur off your new sockets from there. make all connections in back of accessories, then they are accessible.
 
wobblymike said:
i am about to build a partition wall in my daughters house to split one big bedroom into 2 for my grandchildren. Iam going to install 2 double sockets on each side of the new wall. There is one double socket in the bedroom at present and my intent is to split the ring under this socket by cutting one of the cables and inserting the new cable run via 2 30a junction boxes. When i polled up the floorboard yesterday I was surprised to see only 1 set of connections to the socket via a single cable. I confirmed this by opening the face plate and confirming there was only 1 set of connections. This indicates that the socket is a spur which is very surprising as it is the only socket in the room. Obviously I cannot run the new cable run from a spur. Am i missing something here?,
Click to expand...

Experience and qualifications?
 
Mate, this is really simple stuff that any decent spark will be able to sort for you easily. Please get someone in to do this for you, especially as you say it's for your grandchildren!!!!! Without seeing the layout, no-one on a forum can direct you as what to do. For example, if I was doing this job, I'd do testing at the distribution board to confirm that the ring was actually a ring, before doing anything else.
 
There is nothing wrong with the occasional spur and they are commonly found. However, and you need to absorb this - no matter how competent you are (and I get an impression that you are, please don't get me wrong) at DIY and 'know how things work' the installation of extra wiring/sockets etc is now governed by Part P of the building regs and you are legally required to notify to your local area building control what you are doing and that the end result meets current regs, is tested and certified etc.

On a practical note, if it IS a spur then you need to identify where it's fed from. If it's a double socket on a ring elsewhere then the easiest thing to do is to make that spurred socket into a 13a fused spur (doesn't even need to be a switched one, you just need the fuse) and then feed the other two new sockets from it. However, if it's actually a radial (point to point) circuit and you happen to have found the last point then so long as the rest of the circuit is OK and meets the applicable regulations then you can just extend it.

BUT - how are you to know about the applicable regs and be able to test that circuit to BS7671:2008 and know that it will not be in danger of harming said grandchild afterwards?
 
as above posts, but have to disagree with the LABC involvement. this is not a notifiable job, but should be carried out in accordance with current regulations, tested and a minor works certificate completed. for what it will cost to get a qualified sparks in, that's the best option.
 
Tel, Spin - yes, fair comment! Get so used to the same routine it's easy to forget. But, an interesting technical point, when does 'extending a circuit' (non notifiable) start to cross over with fundamentally changing the characteristics of a circuit so far as Zs and different CPD's is concerned?

AND - no one has yet to mention the letters R, C & D.
 
Pretty grey area on the online notification, I was told to but extra sockets (not in special location) as "Other".....when you notify "Other" in comes as Notifiable to LA, I'm going to question it this week.
 
wobbly, if you post your location, i'm sure one of us is close to you.
 
Rockingit said:
Tel, Spin - yes, fair comment! Get so used to the same routine it's easy to forget. But, an interesting technical point, when does 'extending a circuit' (non notifiable) start to cross over with fundamentally changing the characteristics of a circuit so far as Zs and different CPD's is concerned?

AND - no one has yet to mention the letters R, C & D.
Click to expand...

AND - no one has mentioned the letters b, o, n, d, i, n & g!
 
To be honest Rock, I am starting to think, that Part P, should just be totally ignored.
I had someone tell me the other day, that you must have the 2391 to be able to issue an EIC or MEIWC, or be a member of a competent persons scheme.
Apparently this bit in Part P says so:
1.10 “Qualified” in this context means having
the appropriate qualifications, knowledge and
experience to carry out the inspection and testing
procedures and complete the relevant electrical
installation certificate.

 
Adding additional sockets, is not notifiable under in part P unless in a special location, and in England and Wales only. Also NAPIT doesn't state otherwise.

BS 7671 however requires RCD protection, where ordinary persons in houses etc. are concerned; this could be accomplished by fitting a combined RCD --- fused spur unit at the origin of the existing spur, so that the existing socket and the new are fully protected.


Regards
 
Rockingit said:
Tel, Spin - yes, fair comment! Get so used to the same routine it's easy to forget. But, an interesting technical point, when does 'extending a circuit' (non notifiable) start to cross over with fundamentally changing the characteristics of a circuit so far as Zs and different CPD's is concerned?

AND - no one has yet to mention the letters R, C & D.
Click to expand...


Cant for the life of me figure why this isnt notifiable?, as above Characteristics of circuit altered, how does a DIY guy with no tester Know if the CPC is continuous in the new cable he has added, if the zs is already on the limit, how does he not know if it is now over the required value?, how does he know if the house is earthed correctly at all?....farce
 
If its entered under "Other Work" as I was advised(incorrectly?) to do (for the last 3 years) then it appears as......Notifiable but i will them ring tomorrow
 
LlandrilloSpark said:
If its entered under "Other Work" as I was advised(incorrectly?) to do (for the last 3 years) then it appears as......Notifiable but i will them ring tomorrow
Click to expand...

Of course they'll say it's notifiable- they want the money!!
 
who is going to check zs, volt drop, continuity,polarity,insulation resistance,rcd protection present and tested and bonding?
an electrician should do these tests without thinking about it, anyone could add extra sockets and yes they should work if done corectly the problem is always if a fault occured later on you see dead people.
i think but not sure its a minnor works cert but not notifiable unless in special location.
this does not mean anyone can do this work, they should still be competant and do tests listed on minnor works it's up to diyer to prove competancy later on if someone dies.
I would also ask if anyone knows of any household insurers that have not paid out because of diyers?
 
again thankyou all for your comments all of which i hear and take on board. What i would like to first do is establish if i have a ring or radial circuit. it is wired as follows
sockets excluding cooker are fed via 1 rcd rated at 32a
sockets in bedroom 1 and 2 have 2 sets of connections to each
single socket in bedroom 3 has 1 set of connections to it
this tells ne it is a radial circuit which i find very surprising
would someone please confirm or otherwise my thinking on this
 
wobblymike said:
i am about to build a partition wall in my daughters house to split one big bedroom into 2 for my grandchildren. Iam going to install 2 double sockets on each side of the new wall. There is one double socket in the bedroom at present and my intent is to split the ring under this socket by cutting one of the cables and inserting the new cable run via 2 30a junction boxes. When i polled up the floorboard yesterday I was surprised to see only 1 set of connections to the socket via a single cable. I confirmed this by opening the face plate and confirming there was only 1 set of connections. This indicates that the socket is a spur which is very surprising as it is the only socket in the room. Obviously I cannot run the new cable run from a spur. Am i missing something here?,
Click to expand...

Without testing the continuity of the circuit I wouldn't dare suggest anything regarding it, best to leave well alone unless you feel you can do it correctly, remember your Grandchildren will be using these sockets, do you want to be responsible for their safety regarding this? Not trying to be awkward, I wish you well, but cannot help you do the Job yourelf due to your post, I hope you have a nice 2013 by the way.


Mike
 
good question
thekingiam said:
who is going to check zs, volt drop, continuity,polarity,insulation resistance,rcd protection present and tested and bonding?
an electrician should do these tests without thinking about it, anyone could add extra sockets and yes they should work if done corectly the problem is always if a fault occured later on you see dead people.
i think but not sure its a minnor works cert but not notifiable unless in special location.
this does not mean anyone can do this work, they should still be competant and do tests listed on minnor works it's up to diyer to prove competancy later on if someone dies.
I would also ask if anyone knows of any household insurers that have not paid out because of diyers?
Click to expand...
 
wobblymike said:
again thankyou all for your comments all of which i hear and take on board. What i would like to first do is establish if i have a ring or radial circuit. it is wired as follows
sockets excluding cooker are fed via 1 rcd rated at 32a
sockets in bedroom 1 and 2 have 2 sets of connections to each
single socket in bedroom 3 has 1 set of connections to it
this tells ne it is a radial circuit which i find very surprising
would someone please confirm or otherwise my thinking on this
Click to expand...

Clearly not!
 
wobblymike said:
again thankyou all for your comments all of which i hear and take on board. What i would like to first do is establish if i have a ring or radial circuit. it is wired as follows
sockets excluding cooker are fed via 1 rcd rated at 32a
sockets in bedroom 1 and 2 have 2 sets of connections to each
single socket in bedroom 3 has 1 set of connections to it
this tells ne it is a radial circuit which i find very surprising
would someone please confirm or otherwise my thinking on this
Click to expand...

Firstly it is not possible to tell visually if a circuit is a radial or ring without actually tracing the path of the wires....you will need to test to confirm. If the circuit is protected by a 32a MCB...(not RCD??...hope this is a typo?)...then it may be a ring,as a radial will normally be protected by a 20a MCB. But as already stated only testing can confirm whether the circuit is a ring and hence how it should be altered.
The job as you describe it is NOT notifyable to LABC....but still comes under the umbrella of part P and so must be carried out in accordance with bs7671 or you are breaking the law. If you are competant to do it to 7671 then go ahead,there is no restriction on DIY electrics as long as part P is complied with.
 
What the !!!! sort of question is this, don't you know how to check out cabling to and from sockets etc lol
wobblymike said:
again thankyou all for your comments all of which i hear and take on board. What i would like to first do is establish if i have a ring or radial circuit. it is wired as follows
sockets excluding cooker are fed via 1 rcd rated at 32a
sockets in bedroom 1 and 2 have 2 sets of connections to each
single socket in bedroom 3 has 1 set of connections to it
this tells ne it is a radial circuit which i find very surprising
would someone please confirm or otherwise my thinking on this
Click to expand...
 
Wouldn't he be better off getting a spark to do the job ?
wirepuller said:
Firstly it is not possible to tell visually if a circuit is a radial or ring without actually tracing the path of the wires....you will need to test to confirm. If the circuit is protected by a 32a MCB...(not RCD...hope this is a typo?)...then it may be a ring,as a radial will normally be protected by a 20a MCB. But as already stated only testing can confirm whether the circuit is a ring and hence how it should be altered.
The job as you describe it is NOT notifyable to LABC....but still comes under the umbrella of part P and so must be carried out in accordance with bs7671 or you are breaking the law. If you are competant to do it to 7671 then go ahead,there is no restriction on DIY electrics as long as part P is complied with.
Click to expand...
 
spinlondon said:
To be honest Rock, I am starting to think, that Part P, should just be totally ignored.
I had someone tell me the other day, that you must have the 2391 to be able to issue an EIC or MEIWC, or be a member of a competent persons scheme.
Apparently this bit in Part P says so:
1.10 “Qualified” in this context means having
the appropriate qualifications, knowledge and
experience to carry out the inspection and testing
procedures and complete the relevant electrical
installation certificate.
Click to expand...


Like most DIYers who don't know anything about Part P
 
Wobblymike is in my neck of the woods. Send me a private message if you want the job done safely and correct. This will not cost you a fortune and its a small price to pay in the long run.

Ps the price will go up by 20% if your a Wakefield Wildcat fan lol.
 
KAS1 said:
Wouldn't he be better off getting a spark to do the job ?
Click to expand...

Probably...but that wasnt what he was asking,I answered his question. TBH if thats the forum policy we might as well just answer every thread not started by an electrician...."Get an electrician in" and not bother with any other advice.
 
He should't be touching the electrical installation if he's not a spark
wirepuller said:
probably...but that wasnt what he was asking,i answered his question. Tbh if thats the forum policy we might as well just answer every thread not started by an electrician...."get an electrician in" and not bother with any other advice.
Click to expand...
 
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